The Plan

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altohb
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Location: Sitia

The Plan

Postby altohb » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:23 pm

This is the Greek government's list of proposals.

http://www.ansa.it/documents/1424769204 ... Grecia.PDF

Now we wait!

bobscott
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: The Plan

Postby bobscott » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:38 pm

It's an ambitious wish list. If 50% of it works, it will be A Good Thing. These things are easy to say, of course, but Tsipras and his pals will have to cut through a mire of vested interests, suit-and-tie - wearing stuffed shirts, and a system which is biased against reform from the very beginning. It's in the genes - e.g. what does Orthodoxy mean in terms of the Greek state church? 'No change. Everyone else is out of step except us'. Transfer that to the political spectrum over the last 4 or 5 decades, and who can wonder at the moribund state of Greek economics? The fat cats are always on top so knocking them off their perches is going to be a hard task.

Tsipras and Varoufakis deserve all the encouragement they can get.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Mixos
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Re: The Plan

Postby Mixos » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:22 pm

Strewth! It's a massive undertaking. All credit to Tsipras and Varoufakis for identifying what needs to happen, but it'll be a huge challenge to get it all done. Two sections in the financial section are of particular interest: "disbanding tax immunity" and "creating a new culture of tax compliance." If this is to be more than just warm words, Syriza will have achieved something no other Greek government has ever done before. I really hope the Troika (or whatever they call themselves these days) will give Greece the benefit of the doubt. But it seems to me that the elephant in the room is the lack of any firm timetable to get all this done .. and time is in very short supply as we all know.

moved 2 crete
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Re: The Plan

Postby moved 2 crete » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:45 pm

To clean up the kitchen so to speak is an admirable agenda but it will take at least a decade, can the big three wait that long for total payback, we can only hope. :roll:
Dave H

Kilkis
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Re: The Plan

Postby Kilkis » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:47 pm

Sky are reporting that the European Commission has announced that the Eurogroup has accepted the Greek proposal.

Over the next four months Syriza have to translate the "plan" into some sort of financial proposal, i.e. Item X in the plan will increase revenue by €A. Item Y in the plan will increase expenditure by €B and so on. Not easy to do. For example, if you estimate that you are losing €5 billion through tax evasion it would be tempting to say that you can increase revenue by €5 billion if you stamp out tax evasion. Highly improbable. You might get €0.5 billion. All the countries in the EU know this so if you put forward your final plan with €5 billion increase in revenue from tax evasion it will get rejected.

Warwick

footscapes
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Location: Crete no longer!

Re: The Plan

Postby footscapes » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:52 pm

And Zero Hedge is reporting that the European Commission has accepted its own proposal.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-24/stunning-reason-why-eurogroup-rushed-approve-greek-reform-package

The pdf (link in article) does indeed seem to have been originated by a Mr Costello.

Paul

filippos
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Re: The Plan

Postby filippos » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:54 pm

Mixos wrote:........ Syriza will have achieved something no other Greek government has ever done before.
Nor made any serious attempt at so doing.

YoMo2
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Re: The Plan

Postby YoMo2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:23 pm

It all has the look of a major whitewash/fudge, whatever you want to call it when a bunch of politicians cobble together something that keeps all their voters happy and rocks no boats.

There is certainly naff all in the list of proposals that the Greeks can't easily wriggle out of whilst pretending they are doing their best. And clearly the Eurogroup are just going along with this, whilst pretending they have demolished the Greeks.

Anyone more devious than me have any idea where this is going?

Andrew
"It's all in the implementation"

Reg
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Location: Kokkino Chorio

Re: The Plan

Postby Reg » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:01 pm

Best of luck to Syriza in stamping out tax evasion and corruption. I hope they focus on all levels of society as it seem endemic throughout. A new culture is required.

The biggest test will come in abolishing privileges. For example, legislation protecting various employment groups and businesses against competition. Syriza obviously has it own paymasters and so that is going to present some real difficulties.

I suspect there is considerable talent waiting to be given a real chance to create wealth.

Reg

Guy M
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Re: The Plan

Postby Guy M » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:41 pm

This is an impossible situation:

If Greece complies with what its creditors want, the Greek people aren't happy

If Greece doesn't comply, its creditors aren't happy.

The only happy people are the Russians. They win either way, by having Greece driven closer to them. And that means I'm not happy, and not should anyone else be if they love Greece.

jet
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: The Plan

Postby jet » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:44 am

The Plan, page 4 .....

Seizing a large quantity of contraband cigarettes in Igoumenitsa

A large quantity of contraband cigarettes -a total of 4.0126 million temachia- found on Clean Monday in a truck that was in ferry bound for Italy.
For the case has arrested 37-year old driver of the vehicle, while the amount of evaded duties and taxes amounting to 734,236.78 euros.


http://www.naftemporiki.gr/story/919880 ... goumenitsa

Mixos
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Re: The Plan

Postby Mixos » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:55 pm

Interesting to see the letter that Tsipras sent to Merkel the other day. Accusations of foot-dragging, not playing the game etc, and meanwhile Greece is about to run out of cash. Who do we believe?

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/files/ ... ter_AM.pdf

Kilkis
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Re: The Plan

Postby Kilkis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:33 am

Mixos wrote:... Who do we believe?...


I'm not sure it's a simple question of who to believe. The people who are providing the funds that Tsipras wants and needs don't trust him. The 20 February agreement basically said, OK you can change the reforms you implement but they must have the same fiscal effect in terms of achieving a surplus as the previous agreement, give or take a little on timing. That means the Greek government has to put forward costed proposals that show they will achieve this. As far as I can see they haven't. They have put forward some ideas which is not the same as firm costed proposals.

As an example every government says they are going to tackle tax evasion. Exactly how are they going to tackle it? What measures are they going to take? What forms of tax evasion will those measures prevent? How much is being lost to the particular forms of evasion that they will tackle? What percentage of that can they stop? What evidence is there that they can achieve that? Have the Greek government put forward that level of in-depth analysis? From everything I have read the answer is no. You can repeat this analysis for everything they have proposed. To make it worse they are inhibiting the ability of the technical team to evaluate their proposals by refusing them access to government departments and accounts. If you were the leader of a Eurozone country what conclusion would you draw from that? Personally if I was in charge of the technical teams I would simply leave Greece and tell the Greek government that we will come back when they are prepared to give us the access we need.

In addition they agreed not to take any unilateral steps that would have negative fiscal implications. They have completely ignored that part of the agreement. You cannot abandon privatisations that are under-way without having a negative fiscal effect. You lose the revenue from those privatisations. You cannot reinstate public sector workers who had been sacked without having a negative fiscal effect. You have to pay their wages. You cannot increase salaries and pensions of public sector employees without having a negative fiscal effect. The government has now tabled bills on all these issues and by doing so have broken the agreement.

Finally they have done everything they possibly could to alienate their European partners. Treating them like idiots. Showing them disrespect. Demanding war reparations from the most influential country in the Eurozone. Accusing countries of conspiring against them, etc etc etc.

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks are the rights and wrongs of all these issues. It doesn't matter if you think Greece should be paid war reparations or workers should be re-hired or assets should not be sold off. Carrying out these actions makes it harder to reach an agreement where Greece gets the funds it needs. The leaders and the finance ministers of every Eurozone member state are simply doing whatever they think protects the interests of their own country.

I agree with Varoufakis that the conditions imposed by the Troika were wrong and caused, to a large extent, the current crisis. I also agree with the analysis in a recent ekathimerini article that the ND/PASOK coalition took all the wrong actions. That doesn't mean that the way the current government is behaving is right. They seem to have less political sense than a five year old.

Warwick

Maud
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Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: The Plan

Postby Maud » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:17 pm

The principle is the same in any situation. We wanted to borrow money for a mortgage when we were first married. We went to see the bank manager, he asked what our annual income was. We had to provide salary slips to confirm our statement of what we earned. He asked us what our normal annual expenditure was, and he gave us a loan for what he thought we could pay back. We struggled for a few year but eventually things got easier. Our starting position was good as we didn't have any debt. - It still took a while as extra expenses happened along the way. ( Children etc!).

The Greek situation is a much bigger problem along the same lines of borrowing and paying back. In the case of Greece it is compounded by debt, mismanagement of finances, corruption, tax dodging etc. The problem is that if you borrow more than you can pay back you will never rid yourself of the debt. If you reorganise your spending it is still going to take years and years to start making headway. In fact it will take years before you can even break even, let alone pay off interest.

As moved 2 crete said, how long are the creditors prepared to wait, and how long does Syriza think it is going to take get their well meaning reforms paying dividends? Sadly I think it has all got out of hand now.....too little too late. I wish Syriza well, and I think they have good intentions, but if the ordinary Greek people don't see any change in their lifestyles they will not be happy, and if creditors don't see some improvement in the financial situation they also won't be happy........neither will the voters in E.U. Countries that have provided funding. This is yet another attempt to keep everyone happy without hard facts and figuresI

I go back to my original paragraph.....when we wanted to borrow money from the bank we had to declare our income and show figures to prove we could make the repayments........

YoMo2
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Re: The Plan

Postby YoMo2 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:51 pm

Maud wrote:........I go back to my original paragraph.....when we wanted to borrow money from the bank we had to declare our income and show figures to prove we could make the repayments........


I agree in principle, but you are ignoring one thing. When the "bailout" loans were made, no-one was interested in whether or not Greece could pay. The money was more or less forced on Greece so that the risk could be transferred from the banks to the taxpayers of France and Germany, as Kilkis spelled out in the previous post.

Andrew
"It's all in the implementation"


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