Rain, Rain, go away

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
filippos
Posts: 5833
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Kalyves
Contact:

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby filippos » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:23 am

"... call it what you want ...". I call it weather or climate depending on the period under discussion.

I've simply stated what I've observed and been told by local residents who have lived in the area all their lives (and I guess that the youngest of those is 50+ and I, too, know what happens to rain and snow after it lands but thanks for the revision lesson, Dave.

As it happens, I spent some time last Thursday wandering around parts of Aptera, including the Roman site - both the main area with the cisterns and ruined bathhouses and the remains of the villa. The only mud I had to avoid was in the tracks of heavy lorries carting soil from new excavation areas. Everywhere else I was able to kneel down (to photograph flowers etc.) without getting muddy or even damp. Not really significant, though: just one observation at a random time.

Also, I trust you're not suggesting that Crete has no variety of terrain and geology. I've always felt that the island changes so much in its topography, geology and landscape that if one travels about 30Km in any direction it could be a different island. As for rain and snow falling randomly where it chooses, I think you'll find with a little research, that you're mistaken. For instance, worldwide, where there are mountains there tends to be more rainfall on the downwind side of the ranges than on the upwind side. Warm clouds contain more water vapour than cold ones: the prevailing wind blows clouds towards mountains which cause upward air currents, clouds rise, get colder, water vapour condenses, falls to earth. That time clouds are further to the downwind side than the upwind side so where does more water land? Of course there are other factors and different meteorological event that cause rain and snow and different results on the ground because of differences in geology.

Still, that's enough: I have no wish to lecture nor do I intend to continue a discussion with someone who "knows" they're right and seems determined to have the last word regardless of the opinions and experience of others. I have more interesting things to do.

WilfySwarez
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:11 am
Location: kolimbari

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby WilfySwarez » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:07 am

After reading the comments on here regarding the rainfall I must agree with moved 2 crete, in the 23 years I have lived in the Kolimbari area this is definitely the worst rainfall I can remember.

moved 2 crete
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:37 pm
Location: Kolimbari, Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby moved 2 crete » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:03 pm

Many thanks Wilfy for your welcome post, I was beginning to think that I was the only one living here to experience this atrocious weather, now I know i was not imagining the whole series of events, i would wish filippos had taken the time to drive more west on the national road in the direction of Kissamos with his camera and used it to see what the weather has done here, and on the way down he would see the land slip either side of th highway, enough said.
Dave H

Kilkis
Posts: 12076
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby Kilkis » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:32 pm

“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be.”

Lord Kelvin, 1883

Below are the measurements from the weather station at the Technical University of Crete in Kounoupidiana on Akrotiri for the last seven winters. The measurements are the cumulative rainfall from 1 July in the first year to 11 March in the second year. I normally calculate up to 30 June but we don’t have all the measurements yet for 2015:

Winter Cumulative Rainfall/cm
2008-09 37.37
2009-10 35.34
2010-11 36.13
2011-12 67.55
2012-13 66.26
2013-14 34.11
2014-15 59.34
From the above I guess you could characterise 2008-09, 2009-10, 2010-11 and 2013-14 as typical. 2014-15 is certainly higher than those four winters but still quite a bit less than 2011-12 and 2012-13 so in no way is it abnormally high.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
John Adams, 1770


Warwick

SatCure
Posts: 1963
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:57 pm
Location: Apokoronas

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby SatCure » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:47 am

But it's always sunny on Akrotiri. Even when we have a thunderstorm here we can see the sun glinting off the quarry. It has its very own climate.

BrianS
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: Apokoronas

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby BrianS » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:24 am

You can read all the statistics that you like, they clearly can be very useful but can also be misleading. The cumulative rainfall total for one year may record it as being "average" but as far as perception goes it depends on when it fell, how regularly, for how long at any one time.

Before moving out here in 2004 we had endured yet another horrendous British summer (or at least what we perceived to be horrendous) only to be informed by the BBC weather presenter that it had, in fact, been sunnier than average. The hours of sunshine which fed the statistics occurred in the morning immediately after sunrise only to disappear behind thick cloud by the time we were all up having breakfast.

As regards our years here in Crete: no two years have been the same although the seasons do follow a definite pattern. I thought that we had left the obsession with weather behind us but I have never felt so close/excited/wary/frightened/awestruck of the elements as we are here. Up on the ridge between Kefalas and Drapanos we have a panoramic view taking in The White Mountains, Chania and beyond to Rodopou with ample opportunity to witness the forces of nature at work. Some days in the winter we are just spectators of the weather and on others we cop the full impact and batten down the hatches!

Kilkis
Posts: 12076
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby Kilkis » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:20 pm

You appear to think that determining how wet a winter has been by measuring the amount of rain that has fallen is a stupid way to do it, Brian? Can you suggest a better alternative? Perhaps have a poll of how wet people think it has been? Several people on here seem to think that is a better method?

I assume Martin's comment was written tongue in cheek?

Warwick

moved 2 crete
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:37 pm
Location: Kolimbari, Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby moved 2 crete » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:26 pm

Average rain fall, I assume it is across the whole Island, but a breakdown area to area could bring vastly different figures, Take for instance the Manchester area in Lancashire, very well known for more than it`s fair share of the wet stuff, but if that becomes the average figure for England the figure for the average would be considerably higher, as Warwick has high lighted re-John Adams, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence, The facts here in our area and the evidence cannot be denied. I have in the passed tried to post photo`s on the web site but have not the computer skills to do so but I do have the photographic evidence. These have been supplied to the Demos in Platanias, but they have not the funds to do the repairs necessary where we live they say because as they have stated the damage in this area have been so great that it has had to be allocated to priority repairs. Averages are con tricks used by governments as I have found out in the past and now re- the winter fuel allowance for those of us who qualified,
Dave H

Mathitis
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 1:57 pm
Location: Apokoronas

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby Mathitis » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:27 pm

I assume Martin's comment was written tongue in cheek?


Not so Warwick, we observed the very same 'phenomenon' over many (many) years!

Kilkis
Posts: 12076
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby Kilkis » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:07 pm

I cannot think of anywhere in the world where it is not possible to observe the sun shining on a nearby area when you are undergoing a thunderstorm. It is completely normal. To suggest that this means Akrotiri has some sort of micro-climate is not viable. Are you suggesting that when Akrotiri experienced as much rain in one day as it did in the rest of the month it was beautiful and sunny?

Typical winter weather moves over Crete from the north west quadrant. Days of extensive rain occur when a large bank of cloud covering a wide area of the Mediterranean moves over Crete. That cloud covers the whole of the Chania nomos and probably most of Crete. Differences in rainfall occur due to local topographic effects as described by Filippos in an earlier post. I would expect, for example, the rain falling in the mountain villages to be higher than on the northern coastal plane. While individual events will vary somewhat from place to place I can see no reason why the total annual rainfall on Akrotiri should be any higher/lower than in Chania, or Platanias or Kolymbari or Kissamos. If anybody has objective evidence that it is then please post it.

Even if the annual rainfall was lower on Akrotiri than Kissamos they are so close together that they would at least follow the same pattern. By this I mean that if the rainfall on Akrotiri was 50 % higher than typical in one year then the rainfall at Kissamos would be 50 % higher than typical for that year. Moved 2 Crete quoted a 60 year old neighbour as saying "I have never seen weather like this in my life time". This implies the area around Kolymbari/Kissamos is experiencing the worst winter weather in 60 years. The rainfall on Akrotiri is not even the highest in the last 3 years. I do not believe those statements can both be true.

I think people are confusing weather and the effects of weather. The low lying area around Kolymbari/Kissamos will experience the rain that falls directly on it plus all the run off from the mountains to the south of that area. Exactly how that distributes itself will be determined by a lot of factors. How many days of extremely heavy rain occur close together for example. Where exactly localised short term individual torrential rain events occur. Probably half a dozen other factors. Thus the distribution will change from year to year even when the total rainfall is the same. Akrotiri on the other hand will experience virtually no run off from the mountains to the south because it is isolated by the narrow strip of land connecting Akrotiri to the main island. Thus Akrotiri will only experience the rain falling directly on it. This can make a big difference to what is observed in terms of water logged ground, localised flooding, landslips etc. I think Moved 2 Crete's area is experiencing particularly bad effects this year and interpreting that as particularly bad weather.

Virtually every year Athens experiences a period of heavy rain. Virtually every year this causes serious flooding in some area of the city. Each year that this occurs it tends to be a different area that is affected. Obviously some areas are more prone than others but it is not the same area each time. Typically the amount of rain falling on Athens is the same each year. Would someone in the area affected in a particular year be correct to say, "This is the worst weather we have ever experienced."?

Warwick

moved 2 crete
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:37 pm
Location: Kolimbari, Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby moved 2 crete » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:03 pm

Not knowing Jeff`s exact location, he has stated that the last 2 years have been so dry that the locals have welcomed this last amount of rainfall to fill the wells etc, looking at Warwick statistics we see on analysis that the last few years stats show higher rain fall but for 13/14 , 11/12 67.55 12/13 55.26 13,14 34.11 14/15 59.30, this must prove that areas differ considerably or stats cannot show the true picture area to area, this in my opinion proves factually that the locals in this particular area have not seen the like in their life time. an interesting an entertaining discussion highlighting this webs sites value to air personal views. Rocky areas will obviously not see saturation the like of which we have in seen this farming district.
Dave H

SatCure
Posts: 1963
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:57 pm
Location: Apokoronas

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby SatCure » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:13 pm

Kilkis wrote:I assume Martin's comment was written tongue in cheek?

No. We often sit in Almyrida and observe the sunny peninsula through sheets of rain. It does seem to us (I'm not the only one to have noticed) that Akrotiri juts out beyond the main area of precipitation. In fact the conversation last week went something like:

"Those mal***s are sunning themselves again!"

"Yes, but they get the invisible kerosene rain."

Jean
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:39 pm
Location: West Crete
Contact:

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby Jean » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:41 pm

On average (yearly average) it rains less on Akrotiri than In Vrysses, Chania or Alikianos (three places with weather stations that do measure rainfall). As you approach the foothills of the northern White Mountains precipitations increase substantially (to reach 3 to 5X that of Akrotiri right in the foothills). Apokoronas (and Chania for that matter) get more rain than Akrotiri because they are closer to the foothills.

Kilkis
Posts: 12076
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby Kilkis » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:17 am

Jean wrote:... Vrysses, Chania or Alikianos (three places with weather stations that do measure rainfall)...


Is their raw data available on-line, Jean? If so do you have links?

Warwick

moved 2 crete
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:37 pm
Location: Kolimbari, Chania

Re: Rain, Rain, go away

Postby moved 2 crete » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:48 am

Thanks to Jean for this enlightening post, this subject has opened minds a little.
Dave H


Return to “General Discussion & News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests