Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

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Topdriller
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Topdriller » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:52 pm

Boris Nemtsov wasn't the first of Putin's many opponents to end up on a marble slab. Who could forget plutonium poisoned Alexander Litvinenko or the unexplained death of businessman Boris Berezovsky. And how many has he jailed on trumped up charges?

And yes, I know Ed Miliband mysteriously disappeared for a few weeks after the General Election but I swear I saw him speak last week from the back benches....

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Loretta9

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Loretta9 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:58 am

I suppose if the BBC say it it must be right - silly me. There I was thinking a good man like Tony Blair, who murdered thousands of Iraq people, was similar to that nasty Mr Putin - heavens above ???
Perhaps its the only way .. an elite, secret squad of Greek Military - TBD - The Black Dolphins, to "knock off" a few of the corrupt rich/powerful fat cats. Start again with a clean sheet. Now thats justice.

Clio
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Clio » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:51 am

I suppose if the BBC say it it must be right - silly me. There I was thinking a good man like Tony Blair


I think this is what is known in the rhetoric trade as a Straw Man Argument. Nobody is saying anything about the BBC being right. Nobody is saying that Blair is a good man. You are using others' non-existent arguments to suggest that those who think Putin a murderous thug must by definition be pro-Blair. Not me, sunshine.

bobscott
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby bobscott » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Loretta9 wrote: There I was thinking a good man like Tony Blair, who murdered thousands of Iraq people, was similar to that nasty Mr Putin - heavens above ???


If either of the men you name sees this, you could well find yourself subject to a libel case!
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

bobscott
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby bobscott » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:21 pm

bobscott wrote:
If either of the men you name sees this, you could well find yourself subject to a libel case!


Or should it be 'subject of......'? Come on fellow pedants, help me out here!!!!!!
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Topdriller
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Topdriller » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:25 pm

John, sorry, Loretta9,

If Greece turns towards Russia, which is nothing more than a negotiating ploy rather than a reality, the West would a) never allow it and b) ostracise the country even further than it already has.

Putin became Prime Minister to get around the two term Presidency rule. If you believe he's a good man, a democrat, a leader who stands up to the West to protect his people then please give me a call because I've a great investment opportunity you might like to put all your money into :lol: .

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Loretta9

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Loretta9 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:51 pm

Here you go again some of you on this site. You must learn to read and when you have done that learn to comprehend what you read.
You will not find anywhere that I have said Putin is a good man. You will not even find any comment ascribed to me saying that I like Putin.
Clio ..please keep up .... TopDriller commented a reference to Miliband .. have a read. So I simply exampled some realism ref Blair - Bush. Unless you interpret TDs comment in a different way - please enlighten me.
TD, interesting comment of yours... "the West would never allow it" ... ??? So not only does the EU screw Greece to the deck now the West want to control any way out the democratically elected Greek Government choose to take. ? So Putin is damned if he appears to be forcing Ukraine to his ways and he is also damned if a sovereign country, Greece, chooses to seek/accept assistance from Russia ????
As for Defamation ... no such avenue in this case.
Oh, dont forget the zillions from the Russian Millionaires and billionaires buying up London. Putin must be doing some good.

Topdriller
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Topdriller » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:32 pm

John / Loretta9

Loretta9 wrote:Putin is damned if he appears to be forcing Ukraine to his ways and he is also damned if a sovereign country, Greece, chooses to seek/accept assistance from Russia ????


Greece, their government and indeed their people claim they want to remain within the EU.

The EU has sanctioned Russia because of their military intervention in Ukraine and their ongoing military support for the 'rebels' in the East of that country.

If Greece 'seeks or accepts assistance' from Russia then how can they remain within the EU?

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Loretta9

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:46 am

Your right TD. However I think a man of your cerebral,discernment could not possibly accept that sanctions work, especially against a man like Putin who is in no way intimidated. He is NOT a Yeltsin. Small countries such as Greece are hit harder than UK or Germany. I dont think the superpowers gave one thought for Greece. The Fishing industry has been wiped out in UK mainly because of these sanctions while Iceland and other none EU countries have quadrupled their Fishing trade.
The Greeks have expressed a wish to stay with EU but elected Tsipras Left Wing government on an anti austerity ticket. I deduce from that further, continued pressure from TROIKA gives the Greek Government the option to be kicked out by defaulting on loans/debt. You cant leave the EU you have to be booted out.
I am anti EU but I dont interfere with opinions on in-out for Greeks that is their choice. I tend to argue/debate from a stance of get the bankers and the powerful rich who are milking the poor. Thats my stance, always has been and always will be because thats the truth of the matter. I am not so naive to think anything will change in the order of such things but theres always a Black Swan somewhere.

Topdriller
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Topdriller » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:25 am

The sanctions (but more so the drop in the oil price) have devalued the Ruble and the Russian economy has stalled with negative GDP numbers this year and next if oil does not recover. I'm guessing those who think sanctions will work are hoping the man in the street will blame Putin for the job loses, pay cuts etc. Whether this happens or not is debatable since Putin is adept at blaming the West and general anti Russian sentiment for his country's ills.

Putin is unpredictable and this is a dangerous time for the world in general and Europe in particular.

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Loretta9

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:55 pm

Public Hospital governor: “10,000 people committed suicide in the 5 years of Greece’s crisis”
Posted: 11 Jun 2015 07:39 AM PDT
“Ten thousand people committed suicide during the last five years, that’s the population of a whole city. One of them was my son.” Theodoros Giannaros, 58, is a broken man. May 22nd is a day that the governor of public hospital “Elpis” will remember all his life. His 26-year-old son, […]

The fat cat EU Commission and the corrupt TROIKA have no social conscience.

Guy M
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby Guy M » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:50 pm

There's a lot of hoping for a 'magic bullet' in all the talk here and everywhere else about this - ie thinking there's one simple solution to all Greece's problems. For example: go to Russia or China for help, get the debts relieved, find oil off the Cretan coast, get rid of austerity, keep austerity on, go bankrupt, leave the Euro etc etc etc. And so, a simple solution gets proposed, an argument ensues on its merits and demerits and we're no further forward.

That's humans for you: we have simple thoughts. If there was an easy solution, someone would have thought of it by now and done something about it. All there is in reality is an incredibly hard grind for the next twenty, thirty, forty...(who knows?) years for this country.

It's not a matter of a few cuts in pensions, slightly longer working lives and selling a few state assets, relieve some debt and it's all ok. Rather, it's about slowly rebuilding and reforming the country and its institutions so someone actually wants to invest to create real jobs that create wealth and give people a life.

An honest person would have to say to a young Greek today: your prospects of prosperity and the prospects of prosperity for your children and their children are very slender; if you can, get out and build a life elsewhere. I hate typing that, but it's true.

PS I have to say suicide is an extremely complex, non trivial matter, deeply hurtful to those involved and not to be thrown around as a political football. Nothing else to say on this.

bobscott
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Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Postby bobscott » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:05 pm

Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!


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