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Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 10:32 pm
by Carolina
Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’ article in Le Monde newspaper: Europe at crossroads - just published on the Greek government website http://www.primeminister.gov.gr/english ... rossroads/

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:02 pm
by Kilkis
I think it is high time that the detailed proposals made by the Greek government and the unmet demands of the institutions are made public.

Warwick

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:24 pm
by mouche
In particular the DETAILED proposals from the Greek government!

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:43 pm
by Clio
Interesting follow-up to the Le Monde piece here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-bl ... aving/3769

I'm glad Mason acknowledged Donne as the origin of the "bell tolls" quote - I thought it a bit odd (surely not ignorant?) of Alexis to point people towards Papa Hemingway's prose when he could be directing them to the source and one of the most beautiful passages in the English language:

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:22 pm
by altohb
Some of us would do well to remember the interconnectedness to which Donne refers. I agree, Clio, it is a beautiful piece of writing; one which I came across in my teens and which I've never forgotten.

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:15 am
by Clio
And so it goes on. I sat up half the night waiting for what was allegedly going to be the climactic clash in Berlin, with Sherriff Merkel and the posse cornering Alex and telling him to come out with his hands up....only to realise it's same-old, same-old.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... greek-debt

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:00 pm
by Guy M
Waiting up half the night for a major move in this Greek drama is a good way to lose sleep: an accounting fudge reallocating bank bailout funds to general support would postpone the day that must come until the autumn. I'm sure this has been thought of.

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:55 pm
by Mixos
A well reasoned piece from Robert Peston of the BBC which addresses "the elephant in the room" that everyone pretends isn't really there...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32989534


.. and an even better one from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in today's Telegraph...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... reece.html

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:56 am
by johnincrete
If Greece defaults, does it mean we will never have to pay back the loan and can move forward with a clean sheet?

I have personal experience of a bank following its rights in law and losing all chance of getting back its money. It seems to be a bankers' "thing". The only way there can be a repayment to Greece's debtors is for the debt to be reduced until repayments are affordable. I don't see that happening.

On the other hand, if suddenly the government was free of the debt burden, I am sure it would immediately re-employ those who lost their jobs, increase pensions and make life difficult for people to generate money through new businesses; we would be quickly heading back into debt. If it was the "old school" who were in power, many fat cats would be rubbing their hands with glee and scheming new ways to steal. Foreign investors will be glad to buy state assets at reduced prices.

As a Christian, I am commanded to pray for the government: it's difficult to know what to say!

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:53 pm
by Guy M
To get into debt again after a write down, there needs to be a lender as well as a borrower. What bank in its right mind would lend Greece money, except on crazy terms? Argentina went through this process and couldn't borrow sensibly for years. The Robert Peston article is right: the true scale of this mess isn't being talked about. It's too bleak.

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:03 pm
by Kilkis
johnincrete wrote:If Greece defaults, does it mean we will never have to pay back the loan and can move forward with a clean sheet?...


At first glance the answer is no. The vast majority of the debt is denominated in Euro and issued under English law. It would still exist after a Grexit. It would retain its value in Euro so would require ever increasing amounts of new drachma to repay it if, as expected, the new drachma lost value relative to the Euro. The Greek government cannot unilaterally void it because it is outside their legal jurisdiction.

There is a possibility that Greece could challenge the bailout part of the total debt in an international court as being odious since it was effectively externally imposed on them and virtually all of it went to bail out banks in other European countries. I'm not sure how that would play out. Does anybody really believe an international court woul reach an impartial verdict against such powerful players as the IMF, the ECB and countries like Germany, France etc?

Warwick

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:41 pm
by Clio
There is a possibility that Greece could challenge the bailout part of the total debt in an international court as being odious since it was effectively externally imposed on them


Certainly that ball is being kicked around here:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/06 ... t-inquiry/

And why not? You could make out a pretty good case for the previous lot's failure in their duty of care to the national weal. And I'm not as cynical as you, Warwick. I've known a few judges in my time, both across a crowded courtroom and across a bottle of wine, and my experience has been, rather to my surprise. that Justice is not corrupt. So yes, i would trust an international court to rule fairly on the odiousness. What's to lose?

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:45 pm
by Loretta9
Banks - the Cathedrals of capitalism - corrupt as hell. Milking Greece until the udder is dry. So they can bring about the 8 million Greeks to being merely commodities. The EU more corrupt than FIFA. Greece may use brown envelopes but the EU and EC use lorries. What is all this ... we will lend you xxx so you can pay back xxxx. ???
We paid out the criminal banks none of them suffered. Funny that, socialist policy saving the GREAT capitalist geniuses, proven criminals and not ONE has seen a policeman except on TV.
Fly to Putin Mr Tsipras sit at his table and never cow-toe to the EU institution which makes FIFA look like Piggy Bank raid.

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:47 pm
by mouche
Loretta9 wrote:Fly to Putin Mr Tsipras sit at his table and never cow-toe to the EU institution which makes FIFA look like Piggy Bank raid.


I take it you're being sarcastic? Putin the Saviour? My foot!

Re: Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:54 pm
by Hudson
cow-toe????