Greece Referendum

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.

Referendum

Poll ended at Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:05 am

I believe the Greek government should accept the terms of the ultimatum issued by the creditors
8
19%
I believe the Greek government should reject the terms of the ultimatum issued by the creditors
35
81%
 
Total votes: 43

moved 2 crete
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby moved 2 crete » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:09 pm

I think Varoufakis will remain in the background as an advisor, he was I think reluctant to go, but as was stated, he was dislike by the other sides negotiators, :wink:
Dave H

Loretta9

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Loretta9 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:17 pm

Well said Kilkis I think you have covered every aspect of this unfinished tragedy. The vote result is merely the beginning of a different can of worms.

Mixos
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Mixos » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:40 pm

Has Varoufakis's replacement been announced yet? If it's the smooth-tongued Euclid there might be hope yet. Altogether a more emollient and less confrontational individual.

Topdriller
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Topdriller » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:50 pm

Does the geopolitical and strategic position of Greece not give Tsipras a stronger hand after the No vote? The one player as yet sitting on the sidelines is the good old US of A. They maybe don't give a toss about Greece per se but they certainly do care about the Middle East, the Med, the Russian Bear and Europe as a united bulwark against further Russian aggression.

The very fact that Kerry is currently in the throes of doing a deal with Iran - who'd have thought that a year or two ago - shows their desire to contain both the Russian and the IS threat. Allowing Greece to 'go rogue' with even the faintest possibility of some financial indebtedness to Putin must be an anathema to Washington. They might not want a far left Greek government in power but they want a Russian foothold in Southern Europe and an unguarded chaotic pathway for terrorism even less.

I've a feeling Mrs Merkel et al will be under extreme pressure right about now from a concerned State Department telling her to fix this problem ASAP.

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Kilkis
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:57 pm

Congress has already put pressure on the IMF, Jon, see my earlier post. These are the links to the two page letter:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJARSOwWIAAkCFw.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJART5aWgAU3bYZ.png

Note the penultimate paragraph on the second page. Seems quite blunt to me.

Warwick

altohb
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby altohb » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:57 pm

Mixos wrote:Has Varoufakis's replacement been announced yet? If it's the smooth-tongued Euclid there might be hope yet. Altogether a more emollient and less confrontational individual.


Yes, it is.

kouti
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby kouti » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:44 pm

Re Varoufakis' resignation ............. this self-confessed 'game theory' enthusiast knows all about one of the oldest routines in the book - ' Good Cop / Bad Cop'.
His old pal Tsipras will now implement the second part of the play.
Interesting times.

Guy M
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Guy M » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:52 pm

Clio wrote:Do you only have negative things to say about tonight's events, Guy and anyone else? .

I think the Greek people are outstandingly brave to have voted overwhelmingly Oxi.

I cannot lie. I think the last ten days has made a bad situation worse, and much more chaos, disruption and a shrinking economy through lack of activity as the banks are frozen is what's in store. I am truly, deeply sorry for the young Greeks who celebrated last night - there is nothing to celebrate, only tears to cry.

Loretta9

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Loretta9 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:52 pm

Is it possible for Tsipras to seriously discuss the necessary reforms without the involvement of big money.??? If, as we all know, bureaucracy has to be pruned why not get on with it. A good start would be to arrest the corrupt rich. Show the poor, bearing the brunt, that you mean business.

Kilkis
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:39 pm

Perhaps those who use Twitter might like to tweet this image repeatedly to Merkel and Schäuble

http://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/wp-content/u ... t-1953.jpg

If Greece could forgive German debt only 8 years after the German occupation, having its citizens indiscriminately slaughtered, its gold stolen and enforced loans never repaid, it makes you wonder what Greece must have done to Germany that they cannot even talk about the possibility of doing the same thing today?

Warwick

Brian
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:14 pm

Hari Kari it is then!

What a bunch of chancers, the referendum was a ball of smoke, and an absolute waste of precious time. What indeed has it achieved. The exact same offer (Junker's proposal) will form the basis of the new bailout deal if one is reached.
You could not make it up - they go to Brussels without any form of new proposal. they don't inform any of other 18 Ministers of finance about the lack of new initiatives and thus have these people fly in, all to no avail. Common courtesy would have informed them to contact their colleagues and explain there is nothing to discuss today, but courtesy is in short supply from the Greeks right now, and this guy is suppose to be more astute than Varoufakis!
The game is up. I hope all those on here who cheered to the heavens when the pyrrhic victory (predictably) was delivered will cop themselves on and see what a bunch of shysters now lead (sic)Greece.
There are parallels of course. Ironically Hitler came to power in much the same way out of chaos of the nineteen twenties/thirties he seized his chance. The first thing these guys do when elected was to reopen the state TV even though thousands are purportedly starving and despite the fact there are several National tv channels there already. This State channel is now unashamedly a pro government mouth-piece paid for with tax-payers contributions sorry EU money.
The patients are definitely in charge of the asylum right now.

bobscott
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby bobscott » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:42 pm

Brian said: " will cop themselves on and see what a bunch of shysters now lead (sic)Greece."

New speak to an old fogey. What exactly does 'cop themselves on' mean? And what exactly does the (sic) refer to?
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:26 pm

I think the (sic) is inferring that the term "lead" is a mistake?

I must confess I am extremely disappointed in the way the Greek side have conducted themselves today. To call for a meeting claiming that you intend to present new proposals and then simply turn up and say that "they are just the short note we sent you a week ago" is pretty poor. It's made worse by the fact that the note basically accepted the creditors proposals, with some extremely tiny modifications, and 62 % of Greeks have just rejected those proposals. If I was a Greek who had voted NO I would feel badly let down.

If I were a member of the Eurogroup I would refuse to attend any further meetings to discuss the Greek situation until I had seen what was being proposed and going to be discussed in writing several days in advance. If I didn't think the proposal had any merit I would simply contact the president of the group and tell him I had no intention of attending, "Just put me down as an ΟΧΙ".

They gained a lot of political capital from the referendum but that capital is not going to win them a new deal. All it gets them is a hearing. They have to come up with a concrete plan that the creditors believe will work. Simply trying to, "See if we can slip this past them" is doomed to failure.

Warwick

filippos
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby filippos » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:46 pm

According to Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph Tsipras expected to lose the referendum vote. The article (here) is fairly long but worth reading IMO. A couple of extracts.

" Greek premier Alexis Tsipras never expected to win Sunday's referendum on EMU bail-out terms, let alone to preside over a blazing national revolt against foreign control.

He called the snap vote with the expectation - and intention - of losing it. The plan was to put up a good fight, accept honourable defeat, and hand over the keys of the Maximos Mansion, leaving it to others to implement the June 25 "ultimatum" and suffer the opprobrium. "

Disparaging as it is to the Greek side the article has some harsh criticisms of the creditors.
" They rejected Greek plans to work with the OECD on market reforms, and with the International Labour Organisation on collective bargaining laws. They stuck rigidly to their script, refusing to recognise in any way that their own Dickensian prescriptions have been discredited by economists from across the world.

"They just didn't want us to sign. They had already decided to push us out," said the now-departed finance minister Yanis Varoufakis.

So Syriza called the referendum. To their consternation, they won, igniting the great Greek revolt of 2015, .......... "

Carolina
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Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Carolina » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:03 am

Kilkis wrote:
I must confess I am extremely disappointed in the way the Greek side have conducted themselves today. To call for a meeting claiming that you intend to present new proposals and then simply turn up and say that "they are just the short note we sent you a week ago" is pretty poor. It's made worse by the fact that the note basically accepted the creditors proposals, with some extremely tiny modifications, and 62 % of Greeks have just rejected those proposals. If I was a Greek who had voted NO I would feel badly let down.

If I were a member of the Eurogroup I would refuse to attend any further meetings to discuss the Greek situation until I had seen what was being proposed and going to be discussed in writing several days in advance. If I didn't think the proposal had any merit I would simply contact the president of the group and tell him I had no intention of attending, "Just put me down as an ΟΧΙ".

Warwick


I completely disagree with your analysis here Warwick. We learnt a few things about the Eurogroup from Varoufakis interviews. I can't find the specific one now but he basically said that the Eurogroup doesnt work as we (or he) might expect. When they had previously sent written proposals through ahead of a meeting and expected a discussion on them, they were told that the eurogroup ministers had not seen them. It was up to the Eurozone leaders to discuss proposals at a later meeting and then go back to the eurogroup ministers to discuss technical details. The Eurogroup ministers then each spoke for 10 minutes and the meeting wrapped up. This exact thing has happened today. See events at live updates Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2 ... -deal-live

Tsakalotos told reporters after eurogroup meeting that there is ‘political will’ in Brussels to give Athens another chance.


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