Greece Referendum

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.

Referendum

Poll ended at Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:05 am

I believe the Greek government should accept the terms of the ultimatum issued by the creditors
8
19%
I believe the Greek government should reject the terms of the ultimatum issued by the creditors
35
81%
 
Total votes: 43

Carolina
Site Admin
Posts: 2853
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: Chania, Crete
Contact:

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Carolina » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:32 am

filippos wrote:According to Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph Tsipras expected to lose the referendum vote. The article (here) is fairly long but worth reading IMO. A couple of extracts.

" Greek premier Alexis Tsipras never expected to win Sunday's referendum on EMU bail-out terms, let alone to preside over a blazing national revolt against foreign control.

He called the snap vote with the expectation - and intention - of losing it. The plan was to put up a good fight, accept honourable defeat, and hand over the keys of the Maximos Mansion, leaving it to others to implement the June 25 "ultimatum" and suffer the opprobrium. "


Hmmmmm... his source?

Carolina
Site Admin
Posts: 2853
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: Chania, Crete
Contact:

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Carolina » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:36 am

More reporting inaccuracies and propaganda from Europe? Paul Mason reporting that he was told by the Greeks that they did submit a proposal but the Europeans didn't 'like it. Paul Mason Video blog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY-qp9e ... e=youtu.be

Loretta9

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Loretta9 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:34 am

Why should Tsipras take a revised proposal to the psychopaths EC. ? If thy cant grasp that 89% of Greeks said OXI to austerity then they simply show their true colours as far as I am concerned. Schultz - and his pals were interviewed over the past days and each one said .. "I respect the democratic vote of the Greek people .. BUT we will not shift, Greece must pay the debt as agreed" ???? It reminded me of Farages famous - "WHO ARE YOU ???" speech.
If they lack, which they clearly do, the capacity to see the 89% NO and then work from that it clearly underpins their fascist approach towards a sovereign state. It also shows their commitment to the bankers with not one bit a care for struggling people who now are only asking for some slack on a multi billion Euro loan.
The sooner Greece moves to the Drachma the better. All I hear and see over here in UK is the wallop upon the FTSE and other financial institutions suffering badly. So much for Greece being this insignificant little country with so called lazy people who dont pay tax ??? If that were the case the corrupt unelected EC would have dumped it in 2009.

filippos
Posts: 5306
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Kalyves
Contact:

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby filippos » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:06 am

Carolina wrote:Hmmmmm... his source?
Haven't a clue and I don't suppose that he'd let on if asked. I think he has a pretty good reputation for being factual, not just pushing rumours. He's been based in Athens for at least a couple of weeks with side trips to Brussels, during which time he's been pretty even-handed but with his sympathies tending towards Greece. Certainly, he's been one of the many economists and financial 'experts' who've been insistent that Greece needs massive debt relief and less austerity to give them a chance of recovery.

He might have been convincingly misinformed but his reputation is for checking his source information.
It will be interesting to see if any corroboration emerges from other sources. Whatever, the Syriza negotiating methods were, at times, naïve and/or provocative before the referendum and since have been incompetent at best.

Whether AEP in the Telegraph is right or wrong I still think the Greek people courageously voted the right way. If AEP is right the people have been appallingly mislead and betrayed, in which case Tsipras might be well advised to hide let alone be near government ever again.

Kilkis
Posts: 8773
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:46 am

While I agree that the behaviour of the Eurogroup throughout the whole crisis has been execrable, if you are right Carol, what was in the new proposal? What have Syriza suggested that is new. Surely, having put their necks on the blocks by voting NO, the Greek people have a right to know. I would have thought that the vote gave Syriza some leverage to say that from now on, in the interest of trust and openness, we are going to publish exactly what we are proposing on a government web site at exactly the time we send the proposal to the Eurogroup. The whole world has access to the site and so knows what the Syriza position is and when they communicated their position. They would not be breaching any confidentiality as long as they don't publish what is discussed in the meetings or publish any counter proposals. Their proposal is their intellectual property so they can do with it whatever they want.

Syriza should submit a new proposal to the Eurogroup because they are responsible for governing Greece, Loretta. They applied for the job and got it. On Sunday they got a vote of confidence. Apart from anything else they said they were going to submit a new proposal and it's about time governments started doing what they commit to. They cannot walk away. Even if in the end there is a Grexit, how that occurs also has to be negotiated and it is the governments job to negotiate. You have to separate in your mind your hatred for the EU and the fact that ordinary Greek people are going to suffer horrendously if Syriza get this wrong.

While I am not in any way doubting Paul Mason's report it hinges on a Greek official telling him that they did send a new proposal but the Eurogroup didn't like it. Repeatedly throughout the negotiations the Greek side has sent proposals that were simply the last rejected proposal with a couple of tweaks. It is quite possible this has happened again. If that is what they have done this time I am not surprised the Eurogroup rejected it out of hand without discussion. The Greek State needs completely restructuring. It is a failed state in all but name yet. The state does not provide the services its citizens need. The government is only partially in control in that it is not able to collect taxation or run the economy. That is a definition of a failed state. As soon as the Eurozone leaders had accepted the real possibility of a Grexit they lost all incentive to do anything. They sit back and wait for Greece to sink or swim with no real concern which it is. Syriza don't seem to realise that they are in that position. Only two things can save Greece now. Either Syriza makes some really radical proposals, which seems unlikely or, as Paul Mason suggested might happen, the 30 stone gorilla sat quietly in the corner wakes up and starts banging heads together. That might get somebody's attention.

Warwick

Clio
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:54 pm

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Clio » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:07 am

While I am not in any way doubting Paul Mason's report it hinges on a Greek official telling him that they did send a new proposal but the Eurogroup didn't like it


Not so Warwick. It hinges on an internal Greek government memo sent by the negotiating team to base camp in Athens, which was leaked and published (though I can't put my hand on it right now) in the Guardian after the talks ended in stalemate. I read it very carefully,I cannot of course guarantee that that isn't as much a bit of white propaganda as the black stuff being hurled by the Eurosuits.

Loretta as usual I flounder through your post looking for waymarks to indicate the direction of its thread. Unusually, above, a fact offers itself as a solid anchoring point for argument but unfortunately it’s wrong. 89% of Greeks voting Oxi? Makari.

Kilkis
Posts: 8773
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:27 am

Thinking about the "Did they didn't they submit a new proposal" debate there may be a simple explanation for the disagreement. As far as the Eurogroup is concerned the old bailout programme ended on 30 June. They will now only negotiate on the basis of a completely new programme, probably involving the ESM. If Syriza submitted a proposal based on the old programme continuing, e.g. based on the last letter they sent with some changes, the Eurogroup would automatically reject it and refuse to discuss it. Syriza would still claim they submitted a new proposal.

If this explanation is correct then it is Syriza that are at fault. The Eurogroup and the Eurozone leaders have loudly and repeatedly stated publicly since 30 June that the old programme had ended. If Greece needed help they would have to apply for that help under a new programme and the only way to do that would be through the ESM. You can argue, and I have, that they are being bloody minded in taking this attitude and it would not be the end of the world if they did continue with a modified version of the old programme, but Syriza cannot simply ignore what the Eurogroup say and plow their own furrow. They also said that the terms of any ESM programme would be much stricter than the old programme especially considering the deterioration in the Greek economy over the last six months. Syriza should have been aware of this. They should have appraised themselves of the terms under which countries can apply for support under ESM and submitted a proposal that met those terms. If they did not realise this then they truly are criminally incompetent.

If I am wrong and Syriza did submit a comprehensive new application under ESM rules then the Eurogroup are beneath contempt.

Warwick

Brian
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:38 pm

To give one example of the recklessness of this Syriza Government.
The referendum which was put to the people asked, did the voter accept the terms of the new EU proposal. This proposal contained something in the region of a thousand conditions, from privatising road marking to reducing military spending. The result was an overwhelming Oxi. This outcome in effect means that all thousand conditions were rejected by the Greek people. Where do you go from there? I know I know, but technically speaking all those conditions should now be off the agenda.

mouche
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby mouche » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:34 pm

Has anyone heard of anywhere where the government has asked their people/voters to vote no? I have asked quite a few greeks what question they were supposed to answer by voting a yes or a no, and I'm sorry to say noone could offer a reply other than that they were voting no to Germany, to paying off their national debt or no to not having any money. And while we're at it; can anyone mention what this government has actually achieved og done when it comes to actual and concrete results other than just making a bundle of promises?

scooby
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:54 pm
Location: Agia Nr Chania

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby scooby » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:02 pm

I believe the Greek people above all else were voting that they have had enough of being brow beaten and they don't want people like Samaras back in. Tsipras is gaining support and his cause is building momentum. So when some say what has his government done, the answer is an almighty effort to bring a bit of democracy back to the proceedings and some common sense. I never thought I would live in a country where a socialist government would try and break the strangle hold of this brutal form of capitalism, and it's been a long time coming, ever since Thatcher and Reagan had their "special friendship. Shame it is not in my home country but my adopted country will do. Whether Tsipras can prevail or not is a different matter, lot of powerful people out there who have got more power than ever before.
Men in suits will always make you pay.

Jeffstclair
Posts: 945
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: The centre of the universe

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Jeffstclair » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:32 pm

Well put scooby....jeff

Loretta9

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Loretta9 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:08 pm

Kilkis said : "You have to separate in your mind your hatred for the EU and the fact that ordinary Greek people are going to suffer horrendously if Syriza get this wrong". ..... I can not waste my time debating so called "deals" when the EU have not shifted one iota. When corrupt unelected EU gangsters do not care at all about increasing suicides and unemployment after imposing their "boys" to run Greece, a sovereign country. I have considered all the options before I post on here. I just cant faff around when it is as clear as the nose on my face what the EU is about and what they intend to do not only with Greece but in formulating a Soviet style dictatorship over sovereign country's.
I am aware of those who accept corruption and crime as "par for the course" - that old adage ... "they all do it, so whats the problem, we cant beat them" - well i dont.

Topdriller
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:47 pm
Location: Kambani, Akrotiri
Contact:

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Topdriller » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:54 pm

Just after Alexis Tsipras made his pitch to the European Parliament, he was rebuked in furious fashion by Guy Verhofstadt, the president of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe.

"Show you are a real leader and not a false prophet," he told Mr Tsipras.

What he said to Tsipras was 100% correct! These things MUST change whether Greece remains in or leaves the EU.

http://youtu.be/P84tN0z4jqM

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Topdriller
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:47 pm
Location: Kambani, Akrotiri
Contact:

Re: Greece Referendum

Postby Topdriller » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:59 pm

So, is this really the end or, to paraphrase Churchill, just the end of the beginning? The Eurogroup's stance has publicly hardened since Tsipras had the audacity to call a referendum.

Unbelievably, the Greek delegation allegedly went back to Brussels yesterday without a coherent plan to present to their creditors, the finance ministers or Hollande and Merkel.

This is so typically Greek and perhaps part of the reason these negotiations have been so fractured.

It's my experience, after nearly nine years here, that the Greeks as a people don't always think ahead or fully consider consequences. Why else park on a blind corner without any thought for other motorists and the accident their actions might cause? Why else run red lights, ignore 'No Entry' signs etc?

Whilst I applaud the OXI vote it will all have been for nothing if the Greek delegation simply turned up in Brussels and expected the NO vote alone to change everything.

Life in the real, the modern, the Northern European world just isn't like that.

Sunday night looks like the final deadline and I worry for this country which has become my home.
We need men who dream of things that never were.

SatCure
Posts: 1890
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:57 pm
Location: Apokoronas

Re: News Readers Caught Lying

Postby SatCure » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:40 pm

After a long and difficult meeting the ESIEA took disciplinary action for violation of electoral legislation against several leading news readers in Greece.
http://www.koutipandoras.gr/article/145 ... ta-kanalia


Return to “General Discussion & News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 13 guests

cron