The End Game

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mouche
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Re: The End Game

Postby mouche » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:57 am

filippos wrote:Oh, yes, very sensible. Most will make the 'ordinary' Greek people even poorer, increase unemployment and almost certainly increase the outflow of bright young Greeks - probably the country's biggest asset - to countries where they have good prospects of employment. I wouldn't bank on there not being an increase in suicides.
Sell off state assets (privatisation), most, if not all, of which will be snapped up by foreign companies thus depriving Greece of income streams that would go towards debt repayment.

Yep, very sensible and economically astute.


What would be the situation if they say no? Most gGreek people richer, increased employment and young Greeks having fled the country coming back?

filippos
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Re: The End Game

Postby filippos » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:18 am

Don't be so stupid! You'll see in other of my posts that I think that out will be worse than in but hopefully for a shorter length of time. I think now that the balance is shifting/has shifted the other way. The creditors' demands are becoming ever heavier and even vengeful.

Just take a proper look at the detail of the demands before making thoughtless comments. You could start by looking at some of the more recent posts for a glimmer of understanding of how the EU is trying to tear away Greece's assets and destroy the country and its people. All heil the European nightmare. Crush those that make mistakes.

I'm joining Kilkis to sharpen pitchforks.

filippos
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Re: The End Game

Postby filippos » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:26 am

I know Boris J can be stupid but I think he's on the right line with this.

Extract: "...surrender, or I will blow you away. That is the choice that faces Greece today, and the man with the gun is the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble."

bobscott
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Re: The End Game

Postby bobscott » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:01 am

Looks like 'surrender' is the result.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/business-33476597
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: The End Game

Postby Kilkis » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:11 am

So Tsipras was forced to undergo 17 hours of gang rape and at the end of it sign Greece's very own Versailles treaty. Not a good outcome. I can see no way that the hard-liners in his own party will support this agreement. He can only pass the necessary legislation with the support of opposition parties. Any bets that they will only agree to support it if he forms a Government of National Unity with, of course, some of the old cadre in ministerial positions?

A very sad day for the Greek people. This agreement gives no hope of significant growth, just endless debt servitude and gradual stripping of all Greek assets.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: The End Game

Postby Maud » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:08 am

As you say Warwick, a very sad day for Greece and its people. Like you Phil, I also think Boris is a bit of a clown at times, but he is correct in all that he said in the newspaper article.

I just wonder if the ordinary Greek people really understand what is in store for them now? At the moment the focus has been on the Banks restricting withdrawals, and the 'squeeze' on the public. Soon the reality of what happened last night will start to hit everyone .....and I see strikes and Government reshuffles ahead!

What a disaster. Greece is no longer in charge of its future.

Maud.

filippos
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Re: The End Game

Postby filippos » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:50 pm

Having seen several photos in the Greek press of people carrying placards
Ο ΛΑΟΣ ΕΙΠΕ ΟΧΙ
I suspect many Greece will feel very let down, not to say bloody angry with AT.
I have some small sympathy for the man having been badgered so relentlessly by numerically superior forces but I have to say I'm disappointed that he collapsed under the pressure. Several Greeks (mainly 30-ish+) I've spoken to in the last few days have been saying they'd prefer to remain in the Euro but not if it meant succumbing even to the pre-referendum conditions let alone the present ones.

filippos
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Re: The End Game

Postby filippos » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:00 pm

Latest in the Telegraph 'live' coverage

"Tsipras "crucified" at summit

More emerging on just what went on in last night's marathon talks.

A eurozone official is quoted as saying in the Financial Times: "They crucified Tsipras in there. Crucified.”

Last night. we also heard EU sources saying the Greek PM was undergoing "waterboarding" by Angela Merkel and President Francois Hollande. The results of the squeeze are clear to see this morning. The PM will have to implement an unprecedented set of draconian measures through his parliament on Wednesday if Greece gets any new rescue."

The more I see of the EU the more I fail to comprehend how anyone would want to belong to such a 'club'.

Topdriller
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Re: The End Game

Postby Topdriller » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:13 pm

I truly hope the British electorate are watching this disaster unfold and appreciate what an opportunity they have to rid themselves of this undemocratic hegemony.

Jon
We need men who dream of things that never were.

Clio
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Re: The End Game

Postby Clio » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:43 pm

I would say "I don't know what he was thinking of", but I don't know how anyone could possibly have been expected to think straight in those circumstances.. Weeks of stressful negotiations interspersed with umpteen plane trips, followed by however many hours it was of being badgered, hectored and threatened.

I'm amazed he could keep awake, never mind make decisions affecting millions.

But that's all from the same toolbox as waterboarding, isn't it? Sleep deprivation followed by verbal onslaught.

It is ludicrous, and it was completely unnecessary for the "agreement" to have been made in such gun-to-the-head, clock-ticking circumstances, but then what wasn't ludicrous and unnecessary about this whole terrible business?

Loretta9

Re: The End Game

Postby Loretta9 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:44 pm

Gangsters - Shysters - Scum Dictators ..... The Fuhrer has spoken. The federal dictatorship has ruled the day. An affront to democracy and an obliteration of a sovereign state. Cameron was elected to confront this totalitarian creep, if its good enough for UK voters to set a mandate of anti EU control its good enough for any and all democratic sovereign states.
I smell a rat in Varoufakis - the recently (timed) stand down ?? He stood down to facilitate a less confrontational debate with compromise the key word.
We have seen no less than a total capitulation by Tsipras and the multi millionaire unelected, Soviet colonels, in grey suits threatening and ordering a sovereign country to fall in line or go to hell.
The EC are corrupt - they lavish in huge pay awards and lottery jackpot level pensions and have the audacity to bully the Greek people into submission.
Reform will be in selling off the islands - this is the objective of the MAFIA and the Godfather Mr Schultz.
The Greek people have a hard time ahead. It remains to be seen if they revolt against the Tsipras capitulation and dishonouring of his mandate.

Mixos
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Re: The End Game

Postby Mixos » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:49 pm

Don't hold back, Loretta, say what you really mean... :wink:

Tim
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Re: The End Game

Postby Tim » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:00 pm

The problem was that Tsipras had no mandate to leave the single currency. The Troika knew this and proceeded to beat the bejesus out of him.

I think his biggest mistake was in the wording of the referendum. Having been elected on a platform of promising two diametrically opposed aspirations, which was clearly a nonsense, it would have helped hugely if the referendum had asked:

"Which is more important to you - continuing membership of the single currency or an end to austerity?"

A clear mandate either way would at least have given him a chance. What happened was a disgrace and an affront to democracy.

I suppose it's still possible that parliament will reject the deal, but one imagines the vested interests within Pasok and ND will leap at the chance of reattaching the state to the Euro-money tit.

Very disappointing.

Tim

Guy M
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Re: The End Game

Postby Guy M » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:49 pm

The referendum must be the most expensive national vote in history. It's added €billions to the bailout cost exacted by vindictive creditors, it's frozen bank accounts and hospitals are squeezed for drugs while businesses collapse. What it didn't do was strengthen the negotiating hand of the Greek government, nor did it signal the end of austerity. Quite the opposite in fact. We should all have been crying last Sunday, not celebrating.

Carolina
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Re: The End Game

Postby Carolina » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:07 am

I truly believe that history will be kind to Alexis Tsipras and that the truth, eventually, will out. He doesnt have the power to take on the big bankers and European elites, indeed Varoufakis has already said they were totally unprepared for the power of the elites they faced right from the beginning.. they were threatened with bank collapses within their first two weeks of election if they didnt capitulate but they carried on fighting. . I still believe that Tsipras tried his damnedest to take them on - six months in which they were purposefully given the runaround and had no time to do anything except haggle with the EU. (read Varoufakis latest blog post about this ). This end result (although it may well not be the end yet) I believe has come about due to immense pressure and terrible threats. Instinctively I still believe that Tsipras still wants to do the best for the people, however he can. At this time this was his only choice. Alternative EU (threat) scenario - coup, banking collapse, chaos?


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