SCHAUBLE AGAIN

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
bobscott
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SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby bobscott » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:08 am

Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Jean
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Jean » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:48 am

For once I tend to agree with him when he says "The Greeks should not put the blame for their problems only on others, they should also see how they can do better themselves,"

Kilkis
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Kilkis » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:36 am

I think it is a question of scale. As far as I can see the conditions being experienced by the migrants camped out in the "jungle" near Calais trying to get into the UK are just as bad as those for migrants arriving in Greece. If the UK and France, two of the richest countries in Europe, cannot deal with a few thousand migrants in a humane and efficient manner how does anybody expect Greece, a country with less than 10 % of the population of the UK and France and a totally trashed economy, deal with over 200 times that number? I'm not sure if Italy, the other front line state when it comes to migrants, is doing that much better than Greece and their economy is almost ten times that of Greece's

Warwick

mouche
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby mouche » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:01 pm

Jean wrote:For once I tend to agree with him when he says "The Greeks should not put the blame for their problems only on others, they should also see how they can do better themselves,"


+1

I wish somebody could come up with some figures as to what it actually cost the Greek state to "take care of" the migrants coming to Greece, how much these migrants leave in various shops and services to the benefit of Greeks and how much the EU has given Greece to cover their expenses! I think the figures would suprise most members here, no delete "think"!

SatCure
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby SatCure » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:51 pm

According to a BBC report, today, more than 800,000 migrants have arrived in Greece by sea in 2015 - mostly via Turkey . Italy has handled around 200,000 - mostly from Libya.

Kilkis
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:51 am

mouche wrote:...I think the figures would suprise most members here, no delete "think"!


Clearly that implies that you know what those figures are so why not post them on here with links to the source of the information?

I'll give you a start. According to this Guardian article the EU has pledged to give €80 million. That is €100 per refugee. Greece is going to make a packet on that deal. Sea and land patrols to try to stop them coming. Rescue patrols to try to minimise deaths. Ferries to get them from the islands where they arrive to the mainland. Building centres to process them and manning those centres. Medical help for those who are sick or injured. The profit must be enormous. Also note that the EU has "pledged". It doesn't say "paid". Greece has already had to deal with 800,000 refugees in 2015 but this is money they will receive at some time in the future.

Warwick

mouche
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby mouche » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:45 am

Well, you seem to accept Guardian as a reliable source thus let me quote;

Thousands of refugees continue to arrive in Germany every day, and the number is expected to reach more than a million by the end of the year.

So I think it is fair to assume that the refugees, or migrants, are entering Greece on their way to Germany, not to stay in Greece, yes?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/o ... ded-crisis

Who do you thnink carry the larger cost of the refugeecrisis; Greece receiving aid from the rest of Europe (and a large number of volunteers who fill up hotels that are otherwise empty, eat in tavernas that are otherwise closed. buy tickets for the ferries etc etc etc) and see them travel on to other countries, or Germany who will have to feed them, house them, find them jobs, give them medical aid, schools and kidergarten for their children and so on and so forth?

Any idea what the average cost of a refugee is on an annual basis for the next 3,5 or 10 years in a country like Germany?

Clio
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Clio » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:24 am

As I understand that, Mouche, you are implying that the influx of refugees has been a)a great boost to the Greek island economy and b)a big drain on the German economy.

Really? This is such a perversion of the facts that it barely deserves a reply, but let me give you a couple of links.

http://www.greek-islands-travel.co.uk/n ... lands.html

http://www.thelocal.de/20151105/eu-comm ... an-economy

As far as I can see, or have read, Greek islanders as well as foreign volunteers continue to behave decently and compassionately towards the incoming tide of humanity. Despite the deleterious effects which the situation is having on their livelihood.

I am proud of the way in which my adopted country has behaved and continues to behave.

bobscott
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby bobscott » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:27 pm

Agree Clio. And can I just say that the intention of my original post was to point up this bloke in Germany who seems to be taking every possible opportunity to interfere in Greek politics and is now using the refugee crisis as another platform from which to attack Greece and its government. The man's bordering on megalomania. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:02 pm

I don't have belief in any particular media outlet but in this case the Guardian was reporting an EU decision. The same story is reported in this BBC version. If you think both the Guardian and the BBC are lying and you believe the EU pledged to give more please provide an alternative source.

Most of the volunteers I have seen and/or know about are people actually living in Greece. Some of them are Greek citizens who are giving up their time, during which they could otherwise be productively employed, to help/rescue those in distress. Some are ex-pats living in Greece who have spare time on their hands and feel compassion for the suffering they witness. I am certain there are many volunteers from outside Greece as well but enough to have a major impact on the Greek economy? I think you have a vivid imagination if you believe they benefit the economy more than dealing with the refugees costs it, even allowing for the EU's "pledges". Please provide figures if you have evidence rather than anti-Greek rhetoric.

I make no criticism of Germany's part in accepting refugees. They have certainly done more than any other country in Europe. Yes it will cost them but they also need an expanding labour force and they will absorb a large proportion into the German labour force very quickly. That is something Greece is unable to do. Note also that the pledged sum is to both help process refugees moving through Greece and support those who seek asylum in Greece. Assuming it costs more to support those who stay then the €80m would provide less than €100 per person for those passing through.

Warwick

mouche
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby mouche » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:38 pm

Appearently you guys just don't get it; The refugees/migrants transit thru Greece and end up in countries like in particular Germany and Sweeden. If you seriousely don't understand that the cost of receiving them for "good" far exceeds the cost of seeing them transit thru Greece, well then I just can't help you!

Out of the 800.000 arriving in Greece how many have actually applied for asylum, and got their application approved?

In Norway we estimate that the total cost for the present refugee crisis could cost the country in the region of 100 BILLION euro!

http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/2015/1 ... der-kroner

ANd I could give you a large number of links documenting how many Norwegians have gone to Lesbos and other places in Greece to help out. They all stay in hotels that would otherwise be empty, eat in tavernas that would otherwise be closed, but I don't doubt for a second that few, if any, Brits do the same!

Loretta9

Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:04 pm

"Joint European Army" Said Schauble. European Border Police. ??? And NOT a single x put on a ballot paper.

moggieman
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby moggieman » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:17 pm

mouche
If you and your fellow country men are so good why arnt you with them instead of once again stirring it up with arguments that once again you have little knowledge of. You seem to think this site is solely to wind people up. If you have so little to do go and help your fellow country people and DO something useful.

"They all stay in hotels that would otherwise be empty, eat in tavernas that would otherwise be closed", what A STUPID COMPARISON TO MAKE. If they are so good and righteous wouldn't they be giving the money to the refuges. No Brits wouldn't they would use the money for better care .Not spending it on there own welfare.


Just give them a Norwegian citizen ship they can then move anywhere they like in the EEC. Straight to the UK for most of them..!!!!!!

mouche
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby mouche » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:32 am

Ad hominem!

Kilkis
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Re: SCHAUBLE AGAIN

Postby Kilkis » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:10 pm

mouche wrote:...In Norway we estimate that the total cost for the present refugee crisis could cost the country in the region of 100 BILLION euro!...


An interesting assessment. According to the article that you linked Norway is going to receive 20,000 Syrian refugees but according to the Official Government Web Site it is going to take 1,000. Seems to be a certain amount of innumeracy in Norway?

Assuming we work with the official figures, since from your previous response you obviously don't believe newspaper reports, if Norway spent €100 billion on 1,000 refugees that would imply €100 million per refugee. What is Norway going to do. House them in gold plated palaces? Even taking the 20,000 figure it would mean €5 million per refugee. I find such figures totally incredible. Is the article published by the Norwegian equivalent of UKIP? The EU is giving Greece €100 per refugee so I can understand why you would think this is an overgenerous amount.

Norway has so far received directly across its border with Russia about 4,000 asylum claimants. That is in total. Greece can receive that many on one stretch of coast in a single day. Most of that 4,000 Norway simply sends back. Many of them cross from Russia because they have right of residence in Russia so it is extremely easy to send them back. Most enter Greece from Turkey but have no right of residence there so it is extremely difficult to send them back.

I don't know what percentage of the refugees arriving in Greece actually apply for asylum in Greece. I am fully aware that most pass straight through but not all. It would only need 1 in 800 to remain in Greece for Greece to be absorbing in one year as many as Norway is taking in total. Norway has a GDP over double that of Greece. Norway also has a sovereign wealth fund that is around three times Greece's debt. Norway has an unemployment rate around 4 %. Since there is always a percentage of the population that are unemployable for one reason or another, 4 % represents full employment. It will be relatively easy, therefore, for Norway to absorb the 1,000 refugees it intends to accept into the work force. I would expect them to become productive members of Norwegian society very rapidly and hence generate income for Norway rather than cost Norway money. Greece has an unemployment rate overall of 25 % and around 50 % for young people. Most of the refugees are young. It would be impossible for Greece to absorb refugees into the work force so any that do stay will remain a burden on the state for a long time.

Looking at these figures I can see why you think Norway is facing such a tremendous burden and why you believe it is so easy for Greece.

Warwick


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