Greece to blame again?

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Loretta9

Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:49 pm

Well there is one thing the EU is very good at organising - enforcing austerity measures under threat. But when it actually comes down to enacting a policy for the humane managing of refugees they are as conspicuous as Lord Lucan.

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Maud » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:36 am

The broadcasting companies in the UK have done a good job of reporting the compassion shown by the locals on Lesvos Carolina. I hope they are aware of that. Their actions have given a clear indication to the rest of Europe what decent people the Greeks are.......especially the residents of Lesvos. - There was a lovely story about three very elderly ladies, (all from a refugee family from Smyrna I think) who have been helping in any way they can. At least the people of Greece are showing their 'neighbours' and others countries what humanity is all about.

I agree with you about opening land borders. So much more needs to be done to prevent desperate people putting their lives and those of their children at risk. Sadly I fear that as long as the people traffickers are out there, the route across the water will be one that will continue to cause many deaths. Then, when they think they have arrived safely in Greece, they will be faced with more hardship and rejection within the EU.. - This is no way to deal with such a humanitarian crisis in the 21st century.

The responsibility for these poor refugees should be shared equally amongst EU countries. It is time politicians stopped talking and took action.

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:12 am

Unfortunately the latest EU government actions will create more chaos. After the meeting of the Balkans countries in Austria without Greece, they have today announced that they will only accept Syrians and Iraqis with photo ID at the FYROM Macedonia border,which is currently closed. Afghans are no longer allowed through at all, they will be denied entry and thousands have been bussed back to Athens and Piraeus yesterday & today. There is no room to house them all. Thousands of others are stranded near the border. Ferries form the islands of Lesvos,Kos,Samos & Chios have not been allowed to sale with refugees tonight (they have bought tickets), as Piraeus port can;t cope with any more arrivals until the border opens. Refugees remain stranded on the ferries in dock on the islands. There have been desperate humanitarian call outs all day on the volunteers groups and from NGO's for food and warm clothing, blankets for all these people, on the island ferries, in Piraeus, Athens and in Northern Greece near the border.

Afghans will remain stranded in Greece when the border reopens and the ferries sail, plus any Syrians & Iraqis without photo ID(many of them - another way of controlling the flow in Europe?).

The Greek government is angry.Tsipras says Greece cannot become "a'warehouse of souls".

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Istronian » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:04 am

The following is re-posted here from the "Chania helps refugees" thread as directed:

Let me start by saying that I do admire your humanitarian efforts and dedication but I do wonder if people’s efforts are compounding the problem. Europe needs to solve the refugee/immigrant problem and urgently if total chaos is to be avoided.

I note that those you assist are referred to as “refugees” and I have no problem with helping them to flee persecution. However, it has been established that as many as 80% of them are not refugees but economic migrants who are risking their and their children’s lives by crossing the sea in small boats from Turkey which is considered a safe country. The father of the drowned child whose picture featured prominently in the worlds press had been working in a safe job in Turkey for two years yet he forfeited his child’s life in the pursuit of financial gain. In my humble opinion, he should have been prosecuted rather than given sympathy and helped! There are, after all, legal ways he could have applied to live in Greece/Europe but he chose to come by stealth and his son paid the ultimate price.

I am currently in Athens, a couple of miles from the old airport which is currently home to a thousand plus immigrants/refugees and more are being housed temporally in football stadiums and old warehouses in Piraeus docks. More are arriving every day. With the northern borders closed where will they go? Indeed, what future do they have in Greece? Tsipras has said that he will not allow Greece to become a country of lost souls. So what is the solution?

I have no answer to this but would suggest that, despite people’s good intentions, by helping them you encourage more to make the journey and add to the problems of Greece and the EU.

Ian

Posted in an attempt to broaden the discussion rather than just being critical.
Nuclear shield erected in anticipation of incoming missiles!!

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:21 am

Istronian wrote:... However, it has been established that as many as 80% of them are not refugees but economic migrants...


Established by whom?

Warwick

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby peebee » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:52 am

Kilkis wrote:
Istronian wrote:... However, it has been established that as many as 80% of them are not refugees but economic migrants...


Established by whom?

Warwick


From the Economist 7th Sept

VIKTOR ORBÁN, Hungary’s prime minister, says the “overwhelming majority” of migrants in Europe are not refugees but are merely seeking a better life. Robert Fico, his Slovak counterpart, says up to 95% are economic migrants.


Reported in the Daily Mail 18th Sept

Only one in every five migrants claiming asylum in Europe is from Syria.
The EU logged 213,000 arrivals in April, May and June but only 44,000 of them were fleeing the Syrian civil war.
Campaigners and left-wing MPs have suggested the vast majority of migrants are from the war-torn state, accusing the Government of doing too little to help them.
'This exposes the lie peddled in some quarters that vast numbers of those reaching Europe are from Syria,' said David Davies, Tory MP for Monmouth. 'Most people who are escaping the war will go to camps in Lebanon or Jordan.
'Many of those who have opted to risk their lives to come to Europe have done so for economic reasons.'

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:36 am

Well if the prime ministers of two of the Visegrad 4 and the Daily Mail say it then it must be true? I mean, they wouldn't have any vested interest in distorting the figures would they?

Warwick

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:08 am

Istronian wrote:...The father of the drowned child whose picture featured prominently in the worlds press had been working in a safe job in Turkey for two years yet he forfeited his child’s life in the pursuit of financial gain...


In reality he was living in Istanbul as a stateless person with no passport and no work permit. He was working in the black economy, 10 hours per day in a garment sweatshop for £0.55 per hour. I bet his family were really living high on the hog? Caviar with every meal? As an ethnic Kurd with no legal right of abode I doubt that his life was all that "safe" either. Nothing the Turkish government likes better than killing a few Kurds.

Warwick

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby mouche » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:13 am

Didn't he take his dead wife and children back to their hometown in Syria to give them a burial there and said he would stay there for the rest of his life looking after their graves? I also seem to remeber that the child pictured at the beach was born in Turkey and had never set foot in Syria?

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:40 pm

Aylan was born in Kobane, which is a town in a predominantly Kurdish area of Syria close to the Turkish border, where his father had originated from. The family had initially fled there after their house in Damascus was bombed and he was tortured by the Assad regime. Kobane is a town in the middle of the conflict between Kurdish fighters and IS. There is also some evidence that, while notionally fighting IS as part of the coalition, Turkey actually assists IS wherever they are fighting the Kurds. His sister was trying to sponsor him and the family to join her in Canada but he couldn't get the necessary paperwork in Turkey. That was why he eventually tried to cross into Europe.

So in summary: bombed out of his house, tortured, living in a war torn town where you risk being slaughtered by IS because you are not a Muslim, working illegally in a sweat shop for £0.55 per hour under a regime that hates everybody of your ethnicity. Just another irresponsible economic migrant?

Warwick

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Istronian wrote:Let me start by saying that I do admire your humanitarian efforts and dedication but I do wonder if people’s efforts are compounding the problem. Europe needs to solve the refugee/immigrant problem and urgently if total chaos is to be avoided.


I agree that Europe needs a plan and they have none. Let's stop bombing Syria for a start.
Perhaps you have a point, Istronian, about humanitarian efforts compounding the problem. Should we sink the boats at sea and let those who still get through starve or freeze to death the numbers would soon reduce?


Kilkis wrote:Well if the prime ministers of two of the Visegrad 4 and the Daily Mail say it then it must be true?

Warwick


Exactly. Victor Orban and the Daily Mail! You beat me to it Warwick.

UNHCR: 85% of arrivals come from Syria (41%) Afghanistan (27% and Iraq (17%) http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Istronian » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Carolina wrote: Perhaps you have a point, Istronian, about humanitarian efforts compounding the problem. Should we sink the boats at sea and let those who still get through starve or freeze to death the numbers would soon reduce?


I have already clearly stated that “I have no answer to this” so why are you suggesting this one? Is it your suggested way to resolve the problem or an attempt to put words into my mouth? You go from one extreme to the other. To either help them or kill them is not the only solution. As my old mum used to say “There is more than one way to skin a cat.”

Carolina wrote: UNHCR: 85% of arrivals come from Syria (41%) Afghanistan (27% and Iraq (17%) http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php


The scource you quote actually says “85% of arrivals come from the worlds top ten refugee producing countries” and 41%, less than half, from Syria. Not quite the interpretation your post puts on it!

Ian

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:02 pm

The source I quote shows graphs with the figures I quote.

I am not suggesting any answers, I am trying to interpret your comment "I do admire your humanitarian efforts and dedication but I do wonder if people’s efforts are compounding the problem". So could you please explain how you think people's humanitarian efforts are compounding the problem.

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:20 pm

Istronian wrote:...To either help them or kill them is not the only solution...


But when it comes to individual situations they often are the only solutions.

You have 20 people stranded on a small rock about 1 km from the shore because their inflatable holed. If you go out in a boat and bring them safely to shore you are helping them. If you leave them on the rock they will die. What is the middle road?

You have 50 people clinging to wreckage about 2 km from shore because their overladen boat capsized. Again, if you go out in a boat and bring them safely to shore you are helping them. If you leave them clinging to the wreckage they will die. What is the middle road?

Situations like this are occurring every day around the coastline of Greece.

Warwick

PS If you add up the actual figures shown on the chart they show 96 % of sea arrivals of migrants come from the top 10 countries, not 85 % as you state, Istronian. It does talk about 85 % at top right but that does not agree with the actual figures shown. It says 95 % at top left so I presume the small difference between 95 % and 96 % is due to rounding errors. Of that 96 %, 85 % come from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. These are all countries where there is serious threat to life. The 85 % comprises Syria 41 %, Afghanistan 27 % and Iraq 17 %.

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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Istronian » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:56 pm

Carolina wrote:The source I quote shows graphs with the figures I quote.


The source certainly does not say “85% of arrivals come from Syria” as you put.

….but we argue about semantics, by your own quotes less than half are true refugees and of those coming from Syria 34% lived in another country, not Syria, for 6 months or more (the average was two and a half years) before starting the journey to Europe*. So 34% of 41% or only 13.9% are true refugees.

Carolina wrote: So could you please explain how you think people's humanitarian efforts are compounding the problem.


Istronian wrote:…….. despite people’s good intentions, by helping them you encourage more to make the journey and add to the problems of Greece and the EU.


There, I have put it in bold as you obviously missed it the first time!

Ian

*. From “Profiling of Syrian arrivals on Greek Islands” in your link


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