Greece to blame again?

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Kilkis
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:59 pm

Istronian wrote:...The source certainly does not say “85% of arrivals come from Syria” as you put.

….but we argue about semantics, by your own quotes less than half are true refugees ...


You completely misread Carol's post. Look at it again. She did not say 85 % come from Syria. She said 85 % came from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. That is correct according to the chart she linked. She showed how that 85 % was distributed between the three countries by putting the percentages for each country in brackets after the name of each country, 41 %, 27 % and 17 % respectively. That distribution is also correct according to the linked chart.

How do you arrive at "less than half are true refugees". Syria is not the only country with conflict that threatens the lives of its citizens. There is a major war against IS going on across the whole of the north of Syria and Iraq as well as the civil war between Assad's regime and the Free Syrian Army. IS are slaughtering Shia Muslims, Sunni Muslims not adherent to IS's strict sect and Kurds. Russia is blanket bombing civilian areas including schools, hospitals and mosques and then looping back to drop more bombs on the rescue workers going in to try to save lives. Turkey is supposedly fighting against IS but in reality is mainly bombing the Kurds who are fighting IS. There is more scattered conflict in Afghanistan but non the less a threat to the civilian population, especially if you live in an area where you do not belong to the tribal group controlling that area.

I suppose an Afghan family trying to flee the country because their daughter will be executed by the Taliban if she tries to go to schools are just more economic migrants? Perhaps people fleeing much of sub-Saharan Africa because they face either fighting for a rebel army or having their arms and legs amputated with a machete are just "seeking a better life". Using that judgement anybody trying to avoid death is just "seeking a better life" because not being killed is usually better than being killed.

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:01 pm

Sorry, guess my punctuation was missing on my figures:

With correct punctuation my comment reads:
85% of arrivals come from: Syria (41%), Afghanistan (27%) and Iraq (17%).

Istronian wrote:…….. despite people’s good intentions, by helping them you encourage more to make the journey and add to the problems of Greece and the EU. There, I have put it in bold as you obviously missed it the first time!


Well actually I didn't miss it, I made the point the first time that if we don't help them they will die.

Loretta9

Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Loretta9 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:32 pm

Kilkis said > > " Russia is blanket bombing civilian areas including schools, hospitals and mosques and then looping back to drop more bombs on the rescue workers going in to try to save lives." < <
Where did that come from? The good ole BBC!! The most corrupt, bullshxt mainstream news outlet on Earth.

mouche
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby mouche » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:45 pm

Loretta9 wrote:The most corrupt, bullshxt mainstream news outlet on Earth.


What sources of information meets your standards, if any?

Kilkis
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:23 pm

No. It came from interviews with MSF doctors whose hospital had been bombed and who had lost colleagues. These are in Free Syrian Army controlled areas and only Assad's regime and Russia are bombing in those areas. I believe it was also verified by UN observers.

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:26 pm

Comment on the media and TV reporting.

Paul Mason has just announced he is leaving Channel 4 news. He says "Channel 4 News is the best news programme on TV; Newsnight where I worked for 12 years is still a beacon of ideas-led television in a dumb and dumber world, so I’ve had a good run in state-regulated broadcasting.
But everybody who knows me also knows the price you pay in terms of having to button your lip... (And) ...
My Guardian column will get a lot more direct."

Carolina
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:41 pm

Kilkis wrote:No. It came from interviews with MSF doctors whose hospital had been bombed and who had lost colleagues. These are in Free Syrian Army controlled areas and only Assad's regime and Russia are bombing in those areas. I believe it was also verified by UN observers.
Warwick


As far as I have read, MSF have not assigned blame for the attack. Only the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) has done so. They are quoted all the time in the western media.

Who are SOHR? SOHR is run out of a two-bedroom terraced home in Coventry by Rami Abdulrahman, a Syrian Sunni Muslim who also runs a clothes shop. I.e. one bloke sitting in his bedroom is being quoted by all the western media as it fits their agenda.

P.S. go to Google. enter 'Syrian Observatory for Human Rights' and click '"News" tab. Then think about it?

Kilkis
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:57 pm

MSF as an organisation may not have attributed blame to Russia but the people I saw being directly interviewed were locals including hospital staff and rescue workers. They all claimed it was Russian planes attacking the hospital. Many claimed that the planes looped back after the first attack and did a second run after waiting a short time. While undoubtedly civilians are also being killed by allied attacks on IS held areas at least the UK is trying to use precision weapons. Russia is using cluster bombs and the Assad regime is using chemical weapons such as barrel bombs filled with chlorine gas. I don't think there is much doubt that Russia is carrying out the majority of its attacks on Free Syrian Army held areas rather than IS held areas, which is what they claim to be doing.

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:06 pm

I really don't know. Are the US and UK bombing ISIS as they claim? Or Assad troups? Do the 'moderate rebels' exist ?

Were ISIS started/funded by U.S?
http://journal-neo.org/2015/10/01/us-co ... errorists/

On and on questions.

bobscott
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby bobscott » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:34 pm

Carolina wrote:
Istronian wrote:…….. despite people’s good intentions, by helping them you encourage more to make the journey and add to the problems of Greece and the EU. There, I have put it in bold as you obviously missed it the first time!


Well actually I didn't miss it, I made the point the first time that if we don't help them they will die.


Istronian's comment echoes the load of absolute cobblers that Cameron is spouting. Does anyone honestly think that when threatened with war, death and destruction a family is going to sit around on the floor with nothing to eat and say 'well, they will rescue us, so we will go' ? Likewise, the discussion goes the other way - 'no-one will rescue us so we may as well stay put'. Balderdash! None of us has experienced anything like what is happening right now and it's just so easy to sit in comfort, with a raki or 3 after a good night out and pontificate. At least Carolina and others have been, seen, experienced and make comments from first-hand knowledge, not the pap we are fed daily in the press and on the news. Grrrrr!
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Loretta9

Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Loretta9 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:46 pm

To answer the "if any" comment from mouche .... I discern and deliberate upon a variety of news outlets but mostly alternative media - blogs and internet interests. I have never listened to the BBC since the days of WMDs - allegation on Assad gassing his own people - Ukraine insurgency - suppressing stuff on Saville ... it is an Establishment mouthpiece. The BBC is one of the richest companies on Earth which makes billions from free market enterprise yet goes after TV licence non-payers more than it does the thieving banksters.
Tell me mouche where do you stand on the BBC? if at all.

Istronian
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Istronian » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:25 pm

Carolina wrote:Sorry, guess my punctuation was missing on my figures:
With correct punctuation my comment reads:
85% of arrivals come from: Syria (41%), Afghanistan (27%) and Iraq (17%).


Thank you for that Carolina.

Having extracted a lot of information from this site over the past couple of years I decided to join so that I could put something back. I did not join to argue politics or statistics and have no intention of doing so as I have far better things to do with my life then become a “keyboard warrior”.

Any road up, as they say up north, I did venture an opinion on the migrant crisis facing Greece and the rest of the EU. I am not heartless; I would, and have, provided assistance to victims of traffic accidents irrespective of whose fault the accident was. I would also rescue a drowning migrant despite believing they willingly and knowingly put themselves and their children in that position in the first place. In fact, it would seem many have paid vast sums for the privilege!

Obviously the posters here are all humanitarians, but no one yet has disputed that by assisting them with food, clothing etc, you are encouraging even more to risk their lives.

The real problem is not whose fault it is or why they are coming but what is Greece going to do with them? In case you have forgotten the northern borders have been closed and Greece is broke, it cannot provide work or benefits to its own citizens let alone hundreds of thousands of migrants. The rest of the EU appears to be blaming Greece for not enforcing its borders and proposes even more sanctions despite Germany inviting them in the first place. Without financial help Greece is, in my opinion, well and truly stuffed.

It would seem that the EU can find £3 Billion* for a defence research and development program but has no funds to help a struggling country.

Don’t you just love the EU?

Ian

*http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/648052/EU-referendum-Brussels-plot-military-merger-UK-stay-in-British-Army-UKIP

Carolina
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:29 pm

Istronian wrote:
Having extracted a lot of information from this site over the past couple of years I decided to join so that I could put something back. I did not join to argue politics or statistics and have no intention of doing so as I have far better things to do with my life then become a “keyboard warrior”.


Yes, of course, Ian. I expect you have retired in Crete and are just getting on with things.

Istronian wrote:The real problem is not whose fault it is or why they are coming but what is Greece going to do with them? In case you have forgotten the northern borders have been closed and Greece is broke, it cannot provide work or benefits to its own citizens let alone hundreds of thousands of migrants. The rest of the EU appears to be blaming Greece for not enforcing its borders and proposes even more sanctions despite Germany inviting them in the first place. Without financial help Greece is, in my opinion, well and truly stuffed.

It would seem that the EU can find £3 Billion* for a defence research and development program but has no funds to help a struggling country.

Don’t you just love the EU?

Ian


Agree. Why didn;t you say so in the first place?

Loretta9

Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby Loretta9 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:02 am

Ian wrote > "The real problem is not whose fault it is or why they are coming but what is Greece going to do with them".
Ian also stated he doesn't discuss politics in this forum. I say the very reason we have a problem is because people do not address the political aspect. Of course, it is political when Middle Eastern sovereign countries are being invaded and bombed by the USA, UK and Russia with the fall-out resulting in the mass exodus of the people. Combine that with a country with no sovereignty - Greece, which happens to be the poorest and least able of the EU member states having to deal with the migrants - economic refugees or whatever they claim to be. If you take the scenario of the sinking ship with 40 people swimming to a liferaft which holds 20 people. 25 manage to squeeze on board. A strong leader refuses to accept anymore on board because if they do all 25+ on board will sink with the liferaft. Is that self-appointed leader evil or kind or rational or inhuman or the person of the moment who saves 25 lives.?
The drowned young boy plastered all over the media is crass as far as I am concerned. People are dying every day in Greece from the rotten austerity measures imposed by Schultz and his EC Oligarchs. The problem is entirely political in my view. In fact turncoat, Tsipras has stepped up to the plate and recognised this. I admire the way the Greek people have an open -arms approach to the unfortunate refugees but I think there would be a slightly different viewpoint if 300,000 refugees arrived at Chania. I am not saying people would not care but I am saying attitudes and opinions would change.

mouche
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Re: Greece to blame again?

Postby mouche » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:35 pm

Loretta9 wrote:Combine that with a country with no sovereignty - Greece, which happens to be the poorest and least able of the EU member states having to deal with the migrants - economic refugees or whatever they claim to be.


WOukd you care to document that Greece is the poorest country within the EU?

http://www.aneki.com/poorest_europe.html?number=25


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