Tsipras: Europe at Crossroads

[Carolina]

I think it is high time that the detailed proposals made by the Greek government and the unmet demands of the institutions are made public.

Warwick

Well it looks like these are they..

Greek proposals http://www.tagesspiegel.de/downloads/11 ... iechenland

Creditors proposals http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/0 ... in-greece/

[Carolina]

Following on .. .Greece wont be paying the IMF tomorrow, but will bundle payment at the end of June.
Yanis Varofakis, finance minister, has long argued that the end of June, when the four-month extension to the country’s bailout program the Syriza government won in February expires, is the real deadline for reaching an agreement.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... d-defiance

[Clio]

After following the shenanigans for several weeks one tends to glaze over a bit, and it’s hard to get exercised over anything any of them does or says. But a couple of things have had me waking up and dusting off the old protest banners.

One, was when La Lagarde, in a tete a tete with Varoufakis, advocated slashing all Greek salaries to a maximum of 700 euros a month. At around the same time she was arriving for an interview with French Vogue, to talk about her penchant for Chanel, carrying that Hermes handbag( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkin_bag)

And now we have Herr “I Love Greece!” Juncker putting forward the creditors’ cunning plan to scrap the welfare benefit for the very low-income pensioners and disabled people. Why not go the whole hog, eh, and have them all humanely put down?

The mind just boggles at the uncaring crassness of these arrogant Eurocrats in their ivory towers, with their inflated salaries and fat expense accounts, presuming to prescribe yet more austerity medicine for the Greek people.

I am cheered by the thought of that earlier out-of-touch Euro-nob, who, told that the people had no bread, asked why they couldn’t eat cake. And she didn’t last long after that.

[Loretta9]

Hudson - Thanks for that. KOWTOW being the correct spelling. I typed on the Hoof. I should have relied on my favourite phrase .... Knowledge is knowing that a Tomato is a fruit - wisdom is knowing NOT to put it in a fruit salad.
Do you sit at home looking for my posts then hone in on comments or little errors I make ??? It certainly seems that way. Whats your views on the EU - Greek bale out ???
Have a Raki chill out.

[Hudson]

" I typed on the Hoof. " I like the pun!

"I should have relied on my favourite phrase .... Knowledge is knowing that a Tomato is a fruit - wisdom is knowing NOT to put it in a fruit salad. " Very good saying.

"Do you sit at home looking for my posts then hone in on comments or little errors I make ???" No, what makes you think that? Don't you mean home instead of hone?

"Whats your views on the EU - Greek bale out ??? " Many hidden agendas on the EU side of things - can't see how you can borrow your way out of debt.

"Have a Raki chill out." Don't need a drink to chill out but thanks for the offer

[Kilkis]

...can't see how you can borrow your way out of debt...

I tend to agree but it is strange that that is exactly what virtually every country in the world is trying to do?

Warwick

[john4d]

The UK had a Chancellor of the Exchequer, (Gordon Brown) who didn't know the difference between investing and borrowing, as he borrowed billions of pounds he told us he was 'investing in Britain's future. Still if you're a politician you can make words mean what you want.

[mouche]

If I renew my loan isn't that roughly the same as borrowing to pay the loan I already have and in the process I get neither richer nor poorer? Or if I borow five euro to pay off my debt of, you guessed it, five euro, I end up still owing five euro excactly as before I took up the last loan? And isn't this basically what Greece is doing, or have to do, since they don't make any money to reduce their debt?

[filippos]

That's not the situation with Greece. Greece borrows/is loaned more money and at least 80% of that money goes to pay some of the interest on existing loans. The result is that Greece ends up owing much more than before they received the latest loan. Existing borrowing, X billion the country receives another Y billion. Immediately they hand back 80%Y to pay interest to creditors. Now their total indebtedness is X+Y billions on which they must pay interest in future.

To take your example of €5. You owe someone €1,000 and interest of €50 (5%) is due but you don't have it. You borrow €50 to pay the interest on the €1,000 debt. You now owe €1,050 and the next tranche of interest will be €52.50 even if the lenders don't expect a higher rate of interest because you're a poor risk. How has your situation improved?

Greece has been borrowing to pay interest not reducing the total loan. If there's another 'bail out' the total debt will increase again.

[Mixos]

Exactly so, filippos, and that is the elephant in the room that nobody seems to be addressing (see Robert Peston's BBC article higher up.) Greece simply cannot repay the money it owes. Full stop. It would take some 50 more years of austerity to come anywhere break-even and that is clearly an intolerable burden to place on any country. Right or wrong, surely the only solution is a debt write-off or some level of debt forgiveness in exchange for verifiable structural reforms. The alternative, as far as I can see, will be an angry and embittered country forced out of the eurozone, and possibly the EU as well, straight into the arms of Russia and or China, leading to an even bigger crisis for the whole of Europe.

[Loretta9]

I answered a school Maths exam question, i immediately knew the answer, did it in my head, answer was right but I lost on credit because I did not show the "working out" or how i reached my correct answer. You do not have to know that xxx plus xxx multiplied by xx = xxxxx. We all grasp the serious impact of interest rates and the even more damaging COMPOUND interest. We know Greece is on its knees. Every week more are added to the suicide rate.It follows therefore that a bankrupt country can NOT pay back a debt. The muscle from the IMF, ECB is applied to bring about institutional change.
This has to be done if Greece wants to function as a thriving economy in the real world.
Fore example; My NBG Debit Card would not work in the ATM. I went into the bank and spent two hours going from desk to desk - "whats your fathers name"? etc etc "we will send a letter to you in 10 Days then you come back in the bank and we will process the new card"?? I watched the bank staff stand at the photocopier printing out forms and I had to sign 10 pages which he stamped and put in his in tray. In a way it was relaxing and laid back with the most friendly staff you could imagine.... I actually did feel like a person and not a punter. However we all know Greece must conform to the modern era. Those are the terms and the reason why TROIKA wants full control. First McDonald's in Russia was a major headline news item. Russia has realised the attraction even necessity to join the market philosophy. The West dont like the fact Putin is no pushover.
Greece have a mandate from its people - "No to austerity". According to UK news the Greek Prime Minister is on the phone to Putin. ??? It may be just fluster and bluff but its a good tactic.
It takes months to actually leave - be no longer a member of the EU from the current position. But the run on the banks will kick in as confidence diminishes.
Brinkmanship is the name of the game both sides have to give. But the underlying issue is in who has the real power in Greece.

[filippos]

My NBG Debit Card would not work in the ATM. I went into the bank and spent two hours going from desk to desk - "whats your fathers name"? etc etc "we will send a letter to you in 10 Days .................

I was in a similar situation. A debit card, three years expired, needed replacing. Small additional problem: new Passport since opening the account so number doesn't match bank records. Several forms to sign (printed in multi-plicate - 1 in wpb, 1 for me, 1 for branch, 1 for HO, 1 for Tom Cobley 1 for .......). Fifteen minutes later back on the street with new card and PIN which, "Please don't use for two hours to be sure everything registered on bank systems". It worked 20 minutes later.

Change of bank indicated? Isn't NBG the acronym for 'No Bl**dy Good'?

[filippos]

Interesting and relevant article in the D. Telegraph about Greece's situation.

[filippos]

................... Greece simply cannot repay the money it owes. Full stop. It would take some 50 more years of austerity to come anywhere break-even and that is clearly an intolerable burden to place on any country. Right or wrong, surely the only solution is a debt write-off or some level of debt forgiveness in exchange for verifiable structural reforms. .............

D. Telegraph article today saying pretty much exactly that.

[Tinny]

I think it is high time that the detailed proposals made by the Greek government and the unmet demands of the institutions are made public.

Warwick

The Greek Government has made public its proposals, they're everywhere on the internet. As for those of the Financial 'Institutions', we have to make do with any documents that a 'leaked' (officially or otherwise)!