Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

[peebee]

Thanks for the clarification - but what about the rest of the questions and the evidence? Bob.

Rest of the questions ? OK, will try.

Would you be kind enough to define your use of the words 'refugees' and 'illegals'
A refugee is someone who is fleeing persecution from within one country, who is seeking asylum in another.
An illegal, is someone who is attempting to enter another country illegally, who is not a genuine refugee.

Do you have anything approaching even a ball-park figure for either category?
I could quote many sources, including the Government ones, neither of which (especially the latter) could be considered 100% accurate.

Who are these 'refugees' who are heading from EU countries
I think we probably covered that already, but I will emphasise that any genuine refugee, should have no need to march across Europe and camp in Calais, because they have already reached a safe refuge.
They certainly have no need to cause disruption to ferry (as per last night) and Eurotunnel services, unless they are hell-bent on getting to the UK, in the belief that they will receive preferential treatment.

who happened to have made it to Europe from their countries of origin after the most frightening and appalling voyages across the water
You mean across the water from Turkey? another safe country?

Patrick

[Loretta9]

bobscott ... you prove my point. Words such as "insensitive" another way of saying ... "you should not mention such things"... the drip-drip erosion of free speech. What is insensitive? People are dying in Greece many committing suicide - people are dying in the Lavant countries... by the hundreds because of power crazy politicians... is it insensitive or OK to mention them? or is it that ONLY British MPs - one MP, is a no go area.
Dont construe my comments as tolerance for hate and murder because you will find that you have no more a hold to that moral stance than I do.

[mouche]

............" people are dying in the Lavant countries... by the hundreds because of power crazy politicians"..........................

So you're basically accusing the politicians of murder?

And by the way; the suicide rate in Greece is (still) very low, although higher than it was, and well below that of my native country Norway!

[Loretta9]

No Mouche ... of course I would never blame the sane, stable minds and rationale of the likes of Tony Blair - George Bush - Obama - Strauss Khaan - Le-Garde - Sarkozy - Merkel - Belesconi ??? Thank god for them and their sensible management style and fair minded policies.
I do blame politicians.
To be clear .. I say Blair and Bush are murderers, absolutely. I can define the meaning of murder if you like ..
Its really great news on hearing that the suicide rate in Greece is below that of Norway. Bizarre.

[bobscott]

bobscott ... you prove my point. Words such as "insensitive" another way of saying ... "you should not mention such things"... the drip-drip erosion of free speech. What is insensitive? People are dying in Greece many committing suicide - people are dying in the Lavant countries... by the hundreds because of power crazy politicians... is it insensitive or OK to mention them? or is it that ONLY British MPs - one MP, is a no go area.
Dont construe my comments as tolerance for hate and murder because you will find that you have no more a hold to that moral stance than I do.

As ever L9 - missing the point - deliberately I suspect. The insensitivity of your remark has nothing to do with the drip-dry erosion of free speech. It has everything to do with your accusation that peebee and I could be directly responsible for the death of another MP. Proof? None. Mere rhetoric, as usual.

If you want it spelled out in words of one syllable, (a) your accusation is ludicrous, as well as being insensitive to the feelings of peebee and myself in your suggestion of direct responsibility and (b) insensitive in invoking the actions of a maniac to support your cause/case. I am offended by your remark. Peebee can answer for him/herself.

BTW - the word is Levant, not Lavant. - doubtless a typo.

[bobscott]

Thanks for the clarification - but what about the rest of the questions and the evidence? Bob.

Rest of the questions ? OK, will try.

Would you be kind enough to define your use of the words 'refugees' and 'illegals'
A refugee is someone who is fleeing persecution from within one country, who is seeking asylum in another.
An illegal, is someone who is attempting to enter another country illegally, who is not a genuine refugee. Yes, I can buy that.

Do you have anything approaching even a ball-park figure for either category?
I could quote many sources, including the Government ones, neither of which (especially the latter) could be considered 100% accurate. Difficult. I agree, but it just shows that on-one really knows, which puts your comment into the realm of speculation rather than fact.

Who are these 'refugees' who are heading from EU countries
I think we probably covered that already, but I will emphasise that any genuine refugee, should have no need to march across Europe and camp in Calais, because they have already reached a safe refuge.
They certainly have no need to cause disruption to ferry (as per last night) and Eurotunnel services, unless they are hell-bent on getting to the UK, in the belief that they will receive preferential treatment. The EU wants to send them back to Turkey. Turkey is sending some back to Syria; Several EU countries are barring entry from Greece. Greece is left holding the baby and can't do much about it. Would you be happy living in the squalor of a Greek detention camp? Or would you try to move on and find something better. Has anyone polled those trying to do that to determine WHICH country'ies they are trying to reach. What proof have you given that they are all trying to get to the UK. If you are cooped up in France, which won't let you move, where would you go? Saouth America??

who happened to have made it to Europe from their countries of origin after the most frightening and appalling voyages across the water
You mean across the water from Turkey? another safe country? As above - What has Turkey done to give them shelter?

Sorry Patrick, not convinced. You claimed they were all coming to the UK to take advantage of the UK Benefit system. Still no proof of that. Bob.

Patrick

[peebee]

Bob
I didn't say they were coming to the UK to take advantage of the benefit system, I said `in the expectation of receiving handouts from the UK taxpayer'
Why do you think they are paying out large sums of money to people smugglers to get across the channel, rather than staying in France or other European countries, maybe it's because they just like the rain

[Tim]

If you want it spelled out in words of one syllable, (a) your accusation is ludicrous, as well as being insensitive to the feelings of peebee and myself in your suggestion of direct responsibility and (b) insensitive in invoking the actions of a maniac to support your cause/case. I am offended by your remark. Peebee can answer for him/herself.

Don't want to be accused of pedantry, Bob, but almost 50% of the above words have more than one syllable.

Just sayin' ....

[bobscott]

If you want it spelled out in words of one syllable, (a) your accusation is ludicrous, as well as being insensitive to the feelings of peebee and myself in your suggestion of direct responsibility and (b) insensitive in invoking the actions of a maniac to support your cause/case. I am offended by your remark. Peebee can answer for him/herself.

Don't want to be accused of pedantry, Bob, but almost 50% of the above words have more than one syllable.

Just sayin' ....

Ha ha! Thanks Tim. I suppose euphemism is 3 syllables, but sounds like 4 if said slowly! But what's wrong with pedantry? (definitely 3 syllables) Bob.

[Loretta9]

Bobscott > Your comments would be patronising were they not so infantile. You will note I never get personal (except in response to personal slights aimed at me). I note, forum users who have no argument DO get personal .. if they fail they often correct your spelling or grammar. (never my style). The art of having a good dig at someone is to be original.
There is no way I can enter into the workings of your mind to establish just how you came to the conclusions you did from the content of my thread (s). I do see that some users on here love the cosiness of agreeing with each other .. then, as soon as an opposing view enters the debate .... wooosh!!!!.. they are off on some trip and want your scalp. Well, you carry on Mr BOB and dig away.
PS... the phrase is .. drip-drip ... not drip - dry. ?? Sorry, I lapsed into my childish mode.
If you want to debate THE subject then I am more than willing to partake in discourse with anybody. I respect the views of others, no matter what... especially people I have never met. I never say anything I would not say to their face and I never get rude and personal. I regard that as cowardly - when you don't know the person reading your comments. But I expect and assume robust, direct, pragmatic interaction as OK for mature adults.

[moved 2 crete]

Views on this subject are set and I think will not change despite the slanging match it has developed into, the one part I do deplore is the us of the word SCUMBAGS used by one protagonist, unappropriate language for this forum I feel...........

[peebee]

unappropriate language for this forum I feel...........

I disagree, the Cambridge English dictionary definition is `a very unpleasant person who has done something dishonest or unacceptable'
As the remark was made about a certain Mr T. Blair. I think it is wholly appropriate.

[moved 2 crete]

In use referring to Mr Obama I personally think it was inappropriate, but that may be refuted by a certain Mr Trump..............

[Loretta9]

Thats right peebee .. what i dont like is the arrogance of people who think I dont know what scumbag means. I will just remind you all again .. I NEVER get personal - I NEVER disrespect people .. BUT ... BUT .. I will respond to those who get personal with me. But there are a few on here who think and assume that I start the personal attacks... I DO NOT. So if you dont like my replies dont get personal at me or correct my spelling or assume you are better educated and have greater knowledge. The only people who are truly ignorant are those who think they know everything - because they are unwilling to listen and discern upon another point of view.
How dare any of you tell others how to speak and how to spell and what to say and what not to say. Have a look at yourselves.
Do you OWN the forum - are YOU the KEEPERS of the forum ??? Grow up. YOu dont want mature debate you just want to shuffle the deckchairs.

PS .. This is a RESPONSE to being personally attacked. Something I never do.

[moved 2 crete]

Sad it is that you find the use of the word acceptable I feel it was used to provide un-needed impact, when I did my little national service I mixed for the first time in my short life with people from all over the country, I found that the different acceptance of various forms of expression varied from region to region, what you find acceptable, I personally do not, and with out your obvious displeasure at my comments I will state my views an ignore your pathetic attempts to try to exclude them, I have obviously touched a raw spot and got a childish little boy playground response , but this could go on ad infinitum so I am closing the book as of now, I will continue to use this excellent forum but not respond on this matter l9...............