Future (and current) British expats in Crete

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Guy M
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Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Guy M » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:07 pm

Exactly the point I made seven weeks ago on this forum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-advisers

filippos
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby filippos » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:03 pm

Decisions being made on emotion and guesswork. There's no indication one way or the other whether settling in Europe will be made more difficult. Britons lived in continental Europe before the EU was even dreamed of. Some people are pessimists, some panic and others consider decisions when there's enough evidence to make decisions rationally.
The Grauniad has always been in favour of the EU and rarely reports anything optimistic about UK leaving the EU.

Kilkis
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Kilkis » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:49 pm

I think I sit somewhere between the Grauniad view and that of Filippos.

Filippos is correct that people have moved to the geographic area we now call the UK from the area we now call the EU for centuries and vice-versa, long before those designations were thought of. People will continue to do so in the future whatever the rules governing that movement are and whatever those areas are called. What worries me is the way it is being dealt with by the UK negotiating team. They only seem to think in terms of what will happen to existing migrants in either direction.

Society today is much more complex than it was centuries ago and the act of moving from one area to another presents real practical difficulties, especially in the areas of healthcare, pension rights and residency rights. Nobody on the UK negotiating team seems to be addressing those issues. Whatever we think of the EU it has developed very practical, fair and workable solutions to these problems and the UK would do well to continue to embrace those solutions once it has left the EU. I fear that the obsession with sovereignty over laws, however, will stop that solution being considered. That will satisfy those who never want to move but will very much be to the detriment of those who do want to move.

The Directive governing movement of EU citizens makes it perfectly clear that people who move on the basis that they are self supporting, e.g. pensioners, can only do so if they have sufficient income to support themselves and have healthcare insurance. The intention is that they should not become a burden on the state to which they move. While they may put a demand burden on the healthcare system of the country they move to they should not be a financial burden. I think the Grauniad is wrong when it draws that conclusion. Most EU countries seem to have very efficient systems for recovering healthcare costs from the country of origin. Only the UK seems to find this impossible.

Such people are in fact an export as far as the country to which they move is concerned. They bring money into the country they have relocated to and spend it on goods and services in that economy. In many cases they also pay taxes in that economy. Providing the UK agrees to maintain healthcare through the S1 system and continue pension increment rights I cannot see what advantage there is to an EU country to stop pensioners coming. If the UK does not agree to retain those rights then I would be surprised if UK citizens were granted residency in the future. It is a problem for the UK government not the EU. Does it care about its citizens or not?

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Carolina » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:22 pm

filippos wrote:Decisions being made on emotion and guesswork. There's no indication one way or the other whether settling in Europe will be made more difficult. Britons lived in continental Europe before the EU was even dreamed of. Some people are pessimists, some panic and others consider decisions when there's enough evidence to make decisions rationally.


I lived in Greece before they were a full member of the EU, it was much more difficult back then. I was arrested once (!) as were a number of friends back then in the early 80's (well, taken to the police station for a few hours and given a telling off!) for having our 3 month visa stamp lapse. Others were fined when they left the country. It's all very well saying Britons lived in Europe quite happily before the EU, but it was in fact much more stressful and expensive (leaving every 3 months to get a new entry visa) back then. So some of us are naturally pessimistic now, having lived through those insecure, non EU, times.

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby filippos » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:13 pm

Kilkis wrote:
filippos wrote:....that people have moved to the geographic area we now call the UK from the area we now call the EU for centuries ........
I said, "Britons lived in continental Europe before the EU..." (with no mention of movement in t'other direction).

Carolina wrote:I lived in Greece before they were a full member of the EU, it was much more difficult back then........
I agree but that was quite a long time ago and many aspects of life have changed dramatically in that time. there's no reliable indication whether or not the situation will revert, or not, to the way it used to be. The matter hasn't even been seriously discussed by the negotiators so far. All I'm saying is that at the moment people are making decisions based on rumour and guesswork. I can't predict what will happen tomorrow but maybe their crystal balls are better than mine.

Also, all newspapers have an agenda; Daily Wail and the like are diametrically opposite the Grauniad and FT etc. in the stay/leave debate. The DW publishes far more in favour of out rather than in and others do the opposite and they all bias their reports to emphasise their standpoint. I'll start to think about it when there are some strong indications of what will happen; until then I intend to continue enjoying life here without worrying about something that may never happen.

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Kilkis » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:34 pm

filippos wrote:I said, "Britons lived in continental Europe before the EU..." (with no mention of movement in t'other direction).


Do you think that there hasn't been a two way movement? These are reciprocal agreements.

filippos wrote:...there's no reliable indication whether or not the situation will revert, or not, to the way it used to be. The matter hasn't even been seriously discussed by the negotiators so far...


I'm not sure that is completely accurate. I can see no evidence at all that the UK side is even thinking about how practical issues will be dealt with in the future. The proposals made by the UK side are purely about how existing migrants will be dealt with. The EU side is pretty clear. As far as I can see if the UK doesn't agree to retain the rules governing the movement of people then the EU will treat the future movement of UK citizens in accordance with the rules governing citizens belonging to a third country with all that implies. It would be perfectly possible for the UK to propose that, while they wish to implement their own conditions on exactly how many and who can relocate to the UK from the EU, those that are granted permission will be dealt with under the EU rules regarding healthcare, pensions and rights of residence.

Warwick

bobscott
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby bobscott » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:59 am

Kilkis wrote:It would be perfectly possible for the UK to propose that, while they wish to implement their own conditions on exactly how many and who can relocate to the UK from the EU, those that are granted permission will be dealt with under the EU rules regarding healthcare, pensions and rights of residence.

Warwick


Perfectly possible is no guarantee nor even a likelihood! Not with the present team of negotiators from Westminster, anyway. All it needs is a short media campaign pointing out how much money the UK is sending back to other EU countries in reimbursement for their healthcare, and the present government will row back from that and declare an end to it.

But after all, this is just speculation. I prefer to prepare for the worst yet hope for the best. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby filippos » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:45 am

Kilkis wrote:
filippos wrote:I said, "Britons lived in continental Europe before the EU..." (with no mention of movement in t'other direction).

Do you think that there hasn't been a two way movement? These are reciprocal agreements.
Don't be silly. of course that's not what I was thinking. I was merely pointing out that you had reversed what I said and I hadn't mentioned UK immigration.
filippos wrote:...there's no reliable indication whether or not the situation will revert, or not, to the way it used to be. The matter hasn't even been seriously discussed by the negotiators so far...
Kilkis wrote:I'm not sure that is completely accurate. I can see no evidence at all that the UK side is even thinking about how practical issues will be dealt with in the future.
If the UK side isn't even thinking about the matter there can't be much in the way of reliable conclusions when the two sides haven't had any negotiations about demands that have been made. Every negotiation I've ever been involved in has started with both/all parties stating what they want. Eventually they either agree a compromise or walk away.

Right now there are too many unanswered questions. What might happen if another member of the EU bloc decided to leave? There are some that aren't very stable politically. What if the UK remain side force another referendum and block the UK withdrawal?

Until there's more certainty I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it, let alone enter a long-winded, pedantic debate.

moved 2 crete
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby moved 2 crete » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:50 am

I would hope that we do not return to how it was as Carolina describes in the early days, we have made our bed here and must lay in it...
Dave H

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Kilkis » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:54 am

The question of one way or two way movement is irrelevant, Filippos. We all know it is two way. I was agreeing with your statement that it happened
filippos wrote:...before the EU was even dreamed of...
You happened to phrase it purely related to Brits moving to the EU while I phrased it both ways. The key thing is that it is not new, it will continue long into the future and with the structures of modern society it poses practical problems that have to be dealt with.

Position papers by the UK are due to be published this week. One source of evidence on UK government thinking regarding Brexit are contained in the Prime Minister's Letter to Donald Tusk triggering Article 50. In paragraph ii) that makes the following statement:

    We should always put our citizens first. There is obvious complexity in the discussions we are about to undertake, but we should remember that at the heart of our talks are the interests of all our citizens. There are, for example, many citizens of the remaining member states living in the United Kingdom, and UK citizens living elsewhere in the European Union, and we should aim to strike an early agreement about their rights.

Note that that document only talks about existing migrants and makes no mention of how migrants will be dealt with in the future. I don't mean the rules for movement but how issues of pensions, healthcare and residence will be dealt with for those who are granted the right to move. A second source of evidence on government thinking is the June Policy Paper. This goes much further and appears quite promising but does suffer from a scattering of weasel words. For example Paragraph 44 includes the statement (my emphasis in red): "The UK intends to continue to export and uprate the UK State Pension within the EU, subject to reciprocity." In other words pensions will continue as before PROVIDED the UK government can negotiate a reciprocal pension agreement with the EU.

In principle I don't think there is a problem getting the EU to agree to reciprocal agreements on these issues BUT the EU will want any such reciprocal agreements to be subject to the ECJ. I think the UK government will reject this and so reciprocal agreements on these issues may prove impossible. The issue of the ECJ is completely crazy and is purely idealogical. Whenever two countries enter into a mutual recognition agreement they individually give up sovereignty over that issue. They do so because it is to both their benefits. Also neither government is competent to rule on breaches of the agreement by either party. It is essential to have some form of Supra-National authority to make such rulings and the ECJ provides such an authority. I think the average person believes that the ECJ can overrule UK courts on any issue but that is not true. It can only overrule any national court on issues that relate to EU agreements and that is a necessary consequence of entering into such agreements. I would rather have a system where rulings on whether agreements are being adhered to are made by a duly constituted legal court taking all evidence into consideration and governed by international law than by a secretive tribunal that only considers if actions have caused a company to lose money, as occurs in TTIP and similar trade agreements.

Warwick

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby filippos » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:38 pm

Read one sentence.

Kilkis
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Kilkis » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:28 am

I presume you mean "Until there's more certainty I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it, let alone enter a long-winded, pedantic debate." That's fine but other people read the thread and may be interested in a response to your comments. I would recommend that anybody who has an interest in the outcome of the negotiations should read the position/policy papers and make their own mind up about the way the two negotiating teams are thinking.

The last series of Dead Ringers on Radio 4 did a very good portrayal of David Davis, our intrepid negotiator, each week. The last two episodes are still available for download as a podcast but only for the next 2 days and 5 days respectively.

Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Kilkis » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:06 pm

For those that have an interest, today's Future Partnership Paper deals with proposals regarding future customs arrangements so not that relevant to living in Crete, unless you are operating an import/export business between the UK and the EU.

Warwick

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby bobscott » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:39 am

Kilkis wrote:For those that have an interest, today's Future Partnership Paper deals with proposals regarding future customs arrangements so not that relevant to living in Crete, unless you are operating an import/export business between the UK and the EU.

Warwick


But like the rest of the government's 'policy' statements, from day one, it is in the end just a wish-list. Anyone can produce one of those. Not sure the 27 nations will approve of it at all. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

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Re: Future (and current) British expats in Crete

Postby Kilkis » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:22 am

Verhofstadt agrees with you, Bob: "To be in and out of the customs union and 'invisible borders' is a fantasy..."

Both he and Barnier stress the need to complete negotiations on citizens rights, Ireland and the financial settlement before discussing trade:

Guy Verhofstadt: "...First need to secure citizens' rights and a financial settlement."

Michel Barnier: "The quicker #UK & EU27 agree on citizens, settling accounts and #Ireland, the quicker we can discuss customs & future relationship."

It does seem a little odd to agree to reach agreement on these issues before discussing future trade relations and then produce their first position paper on trade.

Warwick


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