POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

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bobscott
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POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby bobscott » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:46 pm

Saw this today in a final statement by David Davis, following this week's EU talks:

This week we have discussed a wide range of issues which will have a significant impact on people’s lives. In particular, both sides have agreed:

To protect the rights of frontier workers.

To cover future social security contributions for those covered by the Withdrawal Agreement.

That we should at least protect existing healthcare rights and arrangements for EU27 citizens in the UK and UK nationals in the EU. The EHIC arrangements.

That is good news for example, for British pensioners in the EU: it means that they will continue to have their health care arrangements protected both where they live and – when they travel to another Member State – to be able to use an EHIC card.


What it doesn't spell out (maybe it's implicit or included in the second item above, but I don't trust them!) whether the NHS will continue to reimburse EU member countries' costs in treating us like their own citizens - free hospital, doctor, balance of prescription costs, etc). Step in the right direction though; maybe!
Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Kilkis » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:04 pm

Yes, it does look promising. Full statement here

Warwick

moved 2 crete
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby moved 2 crete » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:33 pm

We live in hopes that there is a clear and unambiguous agreement without additional clauses.
Dave H

GlennB
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby GlennB » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:21 pm

Promising, but the statement is an ambiguous mess.

Reciprocal healthcare for full-time residents is not EHIC. It's perfectly possible that Davis doesn't understand.

Kilkis
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:19 am

I think it is unambiguous. As written the statement reads:

"That is good news for example, for British pensioners in the EU: it means that they will continue to have their health care arrangements protected both where they live and – when they travel to another Member State – to be able to use an EHIC card."

I believe the dashes mean that the phrase "– when they travel to another Member State –" should be interpreted as an aside. Without that phrase the statement reads:

"That is good news for example, for British pensioners in the EU: it means that they will continue to have their health care arrangements protected both where they live and to be able to use an EHIC card."

The aside defines when they will be able to use the EHIC, i.e. "when they travel to another Member State". I think what is more worrying is that Davis is trying to present a picture of good progress while Barnier is saying there was little progress. The only area where he said the talks had been fruitful was on the Ireland problem. If an agreement had really been reached on healthcare why did he not say so in his speech?

Warwick

GlennB
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby GlennB » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:27 am

Kilkis wrote:I think it is unambiguous. As written the statement reads:

"That is good news for example, for British pensioners in the EU: it means that they will continue to have their health care arrangements protected both where they live and – when they travel to another Member State – to be able to use an EHIC card."

I believe the dashes mean that the phrase "– when they travel to another Member State –" should be interpreted as an aside. Without that phrase the statement reads:

"That is good news for example, for British pensioners in the EU: it means that they will continue to have their health care arrangements protected both where they live and to be able to use an EHIC card."

The aside defines when they will be able to use the EHIC, i.e. "when they travel to another Member State". I think what is more worrying is that Davis is trying to present a picture of good progress while Barnier is saying there was little progress. The only area where he said the talks had been fruitful was on the Ireland problem. If an agreement had really been reached on healthcare why did he not say so in his speech?

Warwick


I hope you're right, but the previous paragraph says:

"That we should at least protect existing healthcare rights and arrangements for EU27 citizens in the UK and UK nationals in the EU. The EHIC arrangements."

which suggests he's under the impression that EHIC is all there is to it.

But there's a little more - we were unable to renew our UK EHIC cards as we were no longer resident there. Has anyone here managed to get a Greek EHIC card to cover emergency treatment when travelling elsewhere in the EU? I can imagine colossal bureaucracy if not outright hostility to the idea. Maybe I'm getting cynical ;)

Also, from The Guardian:

"The agreement will allow a British pensioner who has retired in another EU country to travel to other EU countries on holidays and use the existing European Health Insurance Card should they need medical attention."

No mention of the S1 system, which suggests they're reading it the same way as me and also maybe not appreciating that EHIC cards expire

Kilkis
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:45 am

GlennB wrote:...But there's a little more - we were unable to renew our UK EHIC cards as we were no longer resident there. Has anyone here managed to get a Greek EHIC card to cover emergency treatment when travelling elsewhere in the EU? I can imagine colossal bureaucracy if not outright hostility to the idea. Maybe I'm getting cynical ;)


The EHIC is issued by the country that is responsible for your healthcare. With the exception of UK State Pensioners, UK healthcare is provided on the basis of residency so if you are not resident then you are not entitled to UK healthcare and hence not entitled to an EHIC. The UK does maintain responsibility for the healthcare of State Pensioners and it uses an S1 Form to authorise the healthcare provider in the country of residence, e.g. IKA, to charge the UK for the healthcare services they provide. If you receive healthcare in Greece through an S1 Form then the UK should still issue you with an EHIC. There may be a problem because IKA frequently doesn't return the second part of the S1 Form to the UK so they do not know that you are registered with IKA.

In Greece healthcare is provided on the basis of contributions to an insurance fund. If you work in Greece and pay contributions to an insurance fund here, e.g IKA, then they should issue you with an EHIC. If you do not contribute in Greece then you are not entitled to an EHIC here.

Warwick

PS I have used IKA as an example above because I think most people know what that is. In reality IKA morphed into EOPPY just for healthcare and has now morphed into the Single Social Security Entity (EFKA) which is more like National Insurance in the UK covering healthcare and pensions.

GlennB
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby GlennB » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:45 am

Kilkis wrote:In Greece healthcare is provided on the basis of contributions to an insurance fund. If you work in Greece and pay contributions to an insurance fund here, e.g IKA, then they should issue you with an EHIC. If you do not contribute in Greece then you are not entitled to an EHIC here.


Which I fully understand, but what if your IKA health care here is based on the S1 system (as is ours)? Can you then get a Greek EHIC card for your travels? Our local KEP rejected the idea as we made no IKA contributions. They even rejected my wife's application for a disabled parking badge for the same reason. Maybe they were wrong, but most UK pensioners living in Greece are in that boat, as their original EHIC card will expire. They then have to battle the local interpretations of the rules and regs and it could easily be a fruitless battle.

Davis's mentions of EHIC worry me for this reason - he appears to be equating reciprocal health care for pensioners with EHIC, or at least connecting them in a disturbing way and in a way that could even show that he doesn't understand the bloody system.

Kilkis
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:41 am

GlennB wrote:...Which I fully understand, but what if your IKA health care here is based on the S1 system (as is ours)? Can you then get a Greek EHIC card for your travels? ...


No. Clearly you don't fully understand. As I explained in my previous post, if you get healthcare here through an S1 Form then you have to apply to the UK for an EHIC. You cannot use the normal NHS application method. You have to contact the DWP Overseas Healthcare Team, explain that you have healthcare in Greece through an S1 Form and ask for an application form for an EHIC. They send you the form partially completed. You complete it and return it. They issue an EHIC. They should only refuse to issue one, or refuse to send you the application form, if IKA have not returned Part 2 of the S1 Form. In that case go to the IKA office where you first submitted the S1 form and ask them to check if they have returned Part 2 and if they haven't ask them to do so. They may well lie and say that they do not need to. When that happened to me I got back to DWP and explained that I was piggy in the middle and they agreed to sort it out directly.

There are two aspects to pensioner healthcare when living abroad. One is the continuous healthcare in the country of residence provided through an S1 form. The other is temporary healthcare when you are travelling to other member states provided through an EHIC. I think Davis' statement makes it clear that he is referring to both types of healthcare.

Warwick

Sinkingslowly
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Sinkingslowly » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:05 pm

Like everyone else on here I hope that the existing reciprocal healthcare arrangements will continue unchanged after Brexit (actually I hope that Brexit doesn't happen at all but that's my own opinion).

Has anyone picked up on any slipped details about who the possible future arrangements will apply to?

I want to make the big move next year and will be eligible to claim under the S1 system before March 2019.

Obviously I'm hoping that any agreements will also apply to those who get in before the deadline and not only to existing residents.

If something like 5 years residency is required or residency before Article 50 or similar then my plans go out the window and I will be forced
to stay in cold wet miserable UK.

Kilkis
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:04 pm

I think the biggest problem with the UK negotiating team is that they don't seem to understand the basic EU principle of "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". It is not accurate, therefore, to say they have reached an agreement on what will happen to healthcare. They may have reached an understanding of what the agreement on healthcare will look like assuming any agreement is reached. Partly for that reason and partly because the UK and the EU have very different ideas on exactly which citizens any agreement will apply to I don't think it is possible to answer your question, Sinkingslowly.

Warwick

Sinkingslowly
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Sinkingslowly » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:50 pm

Kilkis wrote: ......I don't think it is possible to answer your question, Sinkingslowly.

Warwick


You are right of course Warwick, there is no answer at the moment.
However, people on this forum are very good at finding snippets of info and I was hoping that there was something I had missed which would at least indicate the way the final agreement would go.

I've not given up yet :-)

Jeffstclair
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Jeffstclair » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:00 pm

Yeah .Don't give up ,the whole thing is a bit of a dog breakfast ...but we must hope for the best .

BST
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby BST » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:40 pm

It's also a bit vague about people who aren't old enough to claim the state pension even though they are retired and receive other pensions. So no S1 agreement etc....even though we are retired here......feeling a bit invisible!!

Tim
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Re: POST-BREXIT continuing healthcare

Postby Tim » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:57 am

BST wrote:It's also a bit vague about people who aren't old enough to claim the state pension even though they are retired and receive other pensions. So no S1 agreement etc....even though we are retired here......feeling a bit invisible!!


I'm firmly of the opinion that where Greek bureaucracy is concerned 'invisible' is a jolly good thing. The more 'invisible' the better.

Tim


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