English speaking vet in Amoudara?

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Toebs
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Toebs » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:52 pm

Been for a month feeding/looking after a semi-feral cat who will shortly be giving birth.

Would be prudent to be know a vet in case of problems.

altohb
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sitia

Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby altohb » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:29 am

Don't know of one in Amoudara, but if you are willing to travel into Heraklion then Ourania Tzatzaki is excellent.

You will need to make an appointment, and please get the cat spayed!


TSATSAKI I. OURANIA

6 Thoukydidou Street, 713 07
https://www.xo.gr/maps/anazitisi-diadro ... 07/?lang=2

28102-42914
6977-975462

Kilkis
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Kilkis » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:37 am

altohb wrote:...and please get the cat spayed!...


...and all the offspring.

Warwick

altohb
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Location: Sitia

Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby altohb » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:56 am

Kilkis wrote:
altohb wrote:...and please get the cat spayed!...


...and all the offspring.

Warwick


Definitely!

peebee
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby peebee » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:53 pm

altohb wrote:
Kilkis wrote:
altohb wrote:...and please get the cat spayed!...


...and all the offspring.

Warwick


Definitely!

The females definitely, the males are less important.

Toebs
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Toebs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:44 pm

So, I leave in about four weeks.

I'd say the kittens look like they'll come any day now, and then by about the time they're starting to ween, and mom is bringing mice, and the current idea is to move them all to a farm owned by a Greek friend, because where I live is a rental and the following tenants cannot be asked to look after a cat with kittens.

My judgement, as best I can make it, which may be wrong, is that it's better for the mother and the kittens to have a warm home and a reliable and large supply of food now and for that first month, and then be moved, disruptive as it will be, rather than the mother being moved now, while she's very late in pregnancy, in need of plenty of food and will want somewhere safe and warm for the kittens (and again, plenty of food) while she's feeding them with milk.

So I'm not in a position to neuter any of these animals - so what I'm about to say is neither here nor there, since it has no effect, and I will in future be much less likely to start taking in semi-feral animals, because of what may come (as it has) from doing so, where that simply doesn't work in practical terms with how I live my life.

I'm not okay with neutering.

The cat has its life. Giving birth is a major part of that - a serious experience. She will love her kittens, just as we love our own children. Who are we to take that away from her?

We do it of course for practical reasons - mainly selfish practical reasons - you end up with vast numbers of cats.

I have to point out here we've ended up with vast numbers of humans. We don't think of neutering ourselves. It seems to me entirely improper to impose our will upon other creatures for something we ourselves refuse.

I expect an argument against this is that humans and cats are not equivelent - but I think this substantially wrong. The cat *has her life*. She lives it, experiences feeling, has freedom. It is not for us to take that away from another creature. We may not like the consequences of it, but that in part I think comes to us for creating an environment which is disturbed enough that some species are able to excessively reproduce.

I may be wrong, but I think we tend not to really, actually respect the lives of other creatures. We treast them not as equals, with their own lives which are not for us to tamper in except by their consent, but as objects.

Jeffstclair
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Jeffstclair » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:15 pm

Toebs....I do understand your feelings about neutering it is a form of creature manipulation to suit us ...but we live in the world as it is ,not how we would like it to be. Domesticated cats and dogs would not exist if we had not bread them into existence, so I feel we owe it to them to give them the best life they can have . A Cat or Dog that has been neutered and checked over by a vet has a million times more chances of finding a permanent home and through that a healthier , longer and maybe happier life..

Toebs
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Toebs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:04 pm

Jeff - I mean no harm by this, I just can't resist it and I hope you take it with the light heart is was written -

Jeffstclair wrote:Domesticated cats and dogs would not exist if we had not bread them into existence


What, you hit with them a french loaf until they give in?? :-)

Kilkis
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Kilkis » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:26 pm

Toebs wrote:...I have to point out here we've ended up with vast numbers of humans. We don't think of neutering ourselves...


Actually many men do neuter themselves. In general we don't need to since we have many methods of controlling our rate of breeding. Cats don't.

You have a simple choice. Don't help them in any way. Do not feed them. Do not get them vet treatment. Do not provide them with shelter. If you do that many will live short miserable lives and die very young but that will ameliorate the birthrate and lead to a stable population of unhealthy cats that lead miserable lives.

Alternatively neuter them and provide them with shelter, food and vet treatment when necessary and you will have a small number of healthy, long lived, happy cats.

You can of course not neuter them and provide them with shelter, food and vet treatment when necessary if you wish. Good luck with your thousand cats in a few years time. Actually you won't have that many because when the number starts to increase your Greek neighbours will drown all new kittens and poison plenty of the adults so that they die in agony.

Your choice.

Warwick

rohima
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby rohima » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:33 pm

Well said, Warwick.

Jeffstclair
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Location: The centre of the universe

Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Jeffstclair » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:03 pm

Toebs wrote:Jeff - I mean no harm by this, I just can't resist it and I hope you take it with the light heart is was written -

Jeffstclair wrote:Domesticated cats and dogs would not exist if we had not bread them into existence


What, you hit with them a french loaf until they give in?? :-)



Hah ... stoneground organic wholemeal ...you have to keep their fibre intake up .... :D

Toebs
Posts: 202
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Toebs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:33 pm

Kilkis wrote:
Toebs wrote:...I have to point out here we've ended up with vast numbers of humans. We don't think of neutering ourselves...


Actually many men do neuter themselves. In general we don't need to since we have many methods of controlling our rate of breeding. Cats don't.


This is true.

I note we've gone from two billion humans to eight billion in the last hundred years, with an extra billion even ten to fifeen years. As as species, we do not have enough control over our reproduction - so we're still basically in the same boat as animals.

You have a simple choice. Don't help them in any way. Do not feed them. Do not get them vet treatment. Do not provide them with shelter. If you do that many will live short miserable lives and die very young but that will ameliorate the birthrate and lead to a stable population of unhealthy cats that lead miserable lives.


No. This is not true. In all things, there are factors which encourage, and there are factors which discourage, and in the end you get what you get. Human care is an encouraging factor. There are many other encouraging factors, and there are many discouraging factors. I have no idea if cat populations are currently stable, declining or increasing, or the extent to which human care alters this.

In any event population changes will vary widely over different areas of the world, too, as will the extent to which human care is an encouragement.

So for example, for all I know, the local cat population is in drastic decline and there's a desperate need for human care, to help keep cat numbers up to deal with the mouse and rat problem.

Kilkis
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Kilkis » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:07 am

Someone who worked for a vet told me that her landlord adopted a cat and fed it. She offered to take it to the vet and have it neutered. The landlord declined because, like you and the vast majority of Greeks, he believed it wasn't natural. A few years later they were plagued by over 100 cats. In my 20+ years in Greece if I have learned one thing it is that in the psychology of a large number of Greeks, I would say a majority but I cannot produce evidence to support that, neutering dogs and cats is regarded as not natural but drowning kittens/puppies or poisoning adults is regarded as totally natural. If I had to choose between a long, safe, comfortable life in which I cannot breed and one in which I had a high probability of being killed I know which I would vote for.

You do what you believe in Toebs but don't expect much support from those of us who care.

Warwick

Toebs
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Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Toebs » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:19 pm

Kilkis wrote:Someone who worked for a vet told me that her landlord adopted a cat and fed it. She offered to take it to the vet and have it neutered. The landlord declined because, like you and the vast majority of Greeks, he believed it wasn't natural.


I know what you mean, but I've never put it like that. Pain killers during dental work are not natural either. Rather, I think giving birth is something important to the cat, a major part of her life, and I wouldn't want to take that away.

A few years later they were plagued by over 100 cats.


Yes. I'm sure it can happen - although I couldn't be sure in this case of cause and effect. Maybe other cats moved into the neighbourhood. I did write in the original post there are factors which encourage, and factors which discourage, and in the end you get what you get. It can be the ecosystem in which cats now live supports a huge cat population, and one much greater than that humans would wish for. I could also then say humans are responsible for this environment. I could also say removing from an animal such an important part of its life *for our convenience because we don't like lots of cats* is, possibly, incredibly selfish - even evil. Animals are not objects.

Fortunately, since I'm in a position where I don't have the option to neuter the mother, I don't have to really work out if it's the right thing to do or not.

In my 20+ years in Greece if I have learned one thing it is that in the psychology of a large number of Greeks, I would say a majority but I cannot produce evidence to support that, neutering dogs and cats is regarded as not natural but drowning kittens/puppies or poisoning adults is regarded as totally natural. If I had to choose between a long, safe, comfortable life in which I cannot breed and one in which I had a high probability of being killed I know which I would vote for.


I may be wrong, but this seems to be a fake choice.

You are arguing that death by humans is very common. That's a very serious claim, and I do not think I can accept it just as is, because it does not fit with what I see around me. I had a conversation recently with an old Greek chap living here. He said once his life, he found some puppies which had been thrown in a bag to drown. It was for him a remarkable event. I see also here enough cats that I find it hard to imagine poison is being used - I would expect far fewer cats, or none.

Then, based on the assertion that death at the hands of a human is highly likely, the argument is that it's been to ensure the animals are not born in the first place.

So because other humans are cruel enough to kill animals, we should step in earlier, and kill those animals before they've even had the life they would have had? and also deprive the mother of the experience of birth and raising children? and this anyway based on the claim that death by humans is so very common?

I may be completely wrong, but this feels like rationalization. This reason, and the earlier reason, both feel like the justification is being blown up to be something bigger and absolute, as so to so much more strongly justify.

"We must neuter cats, or they'll live appallingly painful lives!"

"We must neuter cats, or humans will poison them and they'll die horribly!!"

It may well be cats *do* need to be generally neutered, but I've not come to this view from the arguments presented.
Last edited by Toebs on Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Toebs
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Re: English speaking vet in Amoudara?

Postby Toebs » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:21 pm

As an aside, birth is currently ongoing!

Momma mews (in a non-angry way) at me when I pop my head round, but I'm not sure if she wants stroking or wants me to go away. Internets say mother generally wants to be on her own, and I figure if she wanted something she'd mew even when I wasn't there, rather than only when I was, so I've left her alone, just popping my head round once in a while so she knows I'm around.


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